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Old 12-25-2014, 02:04 PM   #41
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Eric's last post brings us full round to the fact that the anchor type is not the whole picture. A good nights sleep or a problem is often dependent on the seamanship of the person dropping and setting the anchor. I would much rather have an experienced cautious seaman drop anchor up wind of me even using an anchor rated poorly versus a carless less knowing skipper just throwing a big Ronca overboard. When people anchor around me I don't pay much attention to the anchor but I do note the seamanship elements its like a form of defensive driving. If I am really appalled I just pick up anchor and move better than a midnight Chinese fire drill. If anyone should anchor around me in the future please do not get upset if I don't immediately back down with full power. I have come to the conclusion that a gentile set followed later by a firmer pull works well. Nigel Calder seems to have come to the same conclusion and he has had a good deal of anchoring experience. Most of the problems I have witnessed with anchors dragging have been due to poor or no anchor watch or boating ignorance.
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Old 12-25-2014, 02:51 PM   #42
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On that note eyshulman on one of the two occasions that I anchored in 50 knot gales the Krogen that dragged down on us was not the only boat in the inlet. A large sailboat anchored there to. The sailboat moved fwd just before we did and he didn't drag on either set. He used a good sized CQR. I have never seen a CQR as a top performer on any anchor test but they grace the bows of many vessels whose owners have a great deal of experience.

Having all the right stuff is OK but good seamanship and good judgment (the latter being more important (IMO)) can't be underrated. On the upside is that our seamanship and judgement is always getting better.
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Old 12-25-2014, 02:57 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
If anyone should anchor around me in the future please do not get upset if I don't immediately back down with full power. I have come to the conclusion that a gentile set followed later by a firmer pull works well.
My boat has a great deal of forward structure above the deck. As a result, my boat walks a fair amount at anchor. I have found that just dropping the anchor while drifting astern and letting it set it self works very well. Once the anchor initially sets, I deploy the snubber, and the boat starts tracking back and forth. This back and forth motion does a great job of setting the anchor with short tugs at the end of each swing. Checking it a few hours later, always confirms satifactory results.

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Old 12-25-2014, 05:10 PM   #44
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Eric,

I agree. I said it somewhere, hopefully I'm not repeating myself (but repetition is allowed - its an anchor thread!) but if some anchors were a real liability the insurance companies would be the first to comment. I spoke to Pantaenius they have no data that suggests one anchor is safer than another (maybe they need to read the marine magazines or one or two anchor threads)

Anchors or the manner in which they are used, seem very forgiving.

Edit O C Diver - try using 2 snubbers (each 10m long), one from each side deck, as a bridle (as catamarans do) - you might find that will steady the motion of your vessel. Run them up the side decks from the aft or midship cleats and then through a forward fairlead. Use something to protect against abrasion. close edit

second edit - eyschulman - we are with you, in crowded anchorages or when we have doubts of the vessel upwind - we simply move. We would rather be in a less favoured location than have the risk of someone upwind dragging. close edit.
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Old 12-25-2014, 05:36 PM   #45
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Djbandi,
I don't need a snubber as I have 435' of nylon in my rode but I could do w a bridal to limit our considerable swinging. But how does one attach the anchor side of a bridal to the nylon rode? My only thought is to rig up two jam cleats but fear they may fall off.
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Old 12-25-2014, 05:47 PM   #46
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Edit O C Diver - try using 2 snubbers (each 10m long), one from each side deck, as a bridle (as catamarans do) - you might find that will steady the motion of your vessel. Run them up the side decks from the aft or midship cleats and then through a forward fairlead. Use something to protect against abrasion.
Makes no difference. There are several good articles that explain how wind blowing on forward structures makes the tacking at anchor occur. Putting up a significant sail in the very stern would mitigate some of the effect, not an effort I'm willing to make. I use a long double line snubber and hardly notice it unless I look out a window.

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Old 12-25-2014, 06:43 PM   #47
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Eric,

Of attaching a bridle to a nylon rode, or part of the rode, I do not know. I might take a leaf from climbers. Try a short nylon sling and attach the sling to the rode with a prussic knot and then attach the bridle to the sling. If you could attach the bridle direct to the rode with a knot (so missing the sling) that would be better. There must be other knots, but I'm not a knot expert (when I need something fancy I get my book out) and the book is on the boat. Its simply too busy on the water to even think of going near it (29 degrees, brilliant blue sky and the start of the Sydney Hobart to watch - Xmas down under).

Let us know how you get on with the prussic knot.

Ted, its not only a superstructure forward, we ride at anchor as well and our windage is aft. There are many, or some, who suggest a riding sail but I confess we have never tried - too much hassle to set up. I have thought maybe dangling a bucket as a sea anchor (such that it does not tangle with anything) - but have not tried that either.
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Old 12-25-2014, 07:45 PM   #48
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When I deploy my snubber, I put out a fair amount of chain to pull the hook below the surface to dampen the jerk at the end of the track. Was thinking about spooling out more chain to see if dragging links between the snubber hook and the boat, back and forth across the bottom would make a difference.

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Old 12-25-2014, 08:31 PM   #49
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When I deploy my snubber, I put out a fair amount of chain to pull the hook below the surface to dampen the jerk at the end of the track. Was thinking about spooling out more chain to see if dragging links between the snubber hook and the boat, back and forth across the bottom would make a difference.

Ted
Some times I also will run more chain out aft of the snubber and allow its weight to down on the whole rode. Years ago on the east coast I also used on occasion a killet weight which could be run down the anchor rode which served two purposes similar to the extra chain we talk about above. The weight acts like a snubber absorbing jerking forces since it has to be lifted up before the direct force can be transmitted back to the boat. The second reason for the extra weight is a lowering of the angle of pull on the anchor(better centenary angle) . These of course are some of the reasons chain is often believed to be superior to soft anchor line. Unfortunately when the pull overcomes the sag in the chain killet or not the harsh jerking force attacks the bow fittings thus all the discussion about snubbers. Actually in good harbors in the PNW in fair weather my main use of a snbber is noise abatement and transfer of force from winch to a cleat. Even with gentile swinging on all chain significant sound transmits from the bow to below.
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Old 12-25-2014, 08:31 PM   #50
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Ted,

Try to keep the attachment of the snubber to the chain off the seabed. It depends on your means of attachment but 'simple' hooks fall off when on the seabed. You can buy hooks that lock onto the chain, Witchard have one with a spring pin - but the pin can bend making it impossible to use.

The longer your snubber 7m - 10m and not too beefy, in your case I'd have thought 14mm nylon but maybe 16mm, you will enjoy decent elasticity. But to accommodate this length you need to run much of that 7m - 10m down the deck. You will need 2 levels of snubber - one set for upto 35/40 knots and another set, bigger diam, for greater than 40 knots. Many snubbers are 2m, they have minimal elasticity. They keep the load off the windlass and stop the chain rattling on the bow roller but do not absorb the snatches when veering. Its the snatches that produce the biggest loads.

Reduce veering and you reduce the power of the snatches, use a snubber it (or they) will absorb the snatch loads. Any snatch loads on the vessel are the same as the snatch loads on the anchor. Bridles are good as they share the snatches, first one side then the other. Seldom does a snatch occur and both take the load. But halving the number of snatches will increase snubber life.

Snubbers are consumables make sure you have some means to keep the load off the windlass when one breaks (and carry spare snubbers).
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Old 12-25-2014, 08:55 PM   #51
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I have always been a proponent of using a second anchor if I suspected or encountered snotty weather. Its why I carry a light second anchor. On my present boat I use an aluminum spade I bought from Tunisia about 15 years ago. Being light with only a short chain I can deploy from the dinghy or by hand over the bow. The second anchor usually solves a lot of problems including less violent swinging and significant increased holding power. In the morning I may find the line and chain with a few twists that need 15 minuets of unwrapping and then I have two anchors to pull up more work but worth the extra security. It takes a bit of judgment and skill to set the second anchor in the right place and with a good bite but not a insurmountable problem.
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Old 12-25-2014, 09:57 PM   #52
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eyschulman,

I'll have to stop agreeing with you (and Eric), people will think its not an anchor thread. I might come to the same conclusion from a different direction. Many would not agree with us, about carrying secondary anchor and with the avowed intent to actually use it (them). I do not think there is a perfect anchor so we carry other primary anchors. They cannot sit on a bow roller, we only have one, but as our anchors are not that large and we have access to alloy - we can deploy the other primaries by hand. But people lose anchors (or need to abandon them) so having spare primaries (and rode) means we have a real fall back. We also carry different designs, so, for example, we can deploy a Fortress in thin mud by itself (but it can back up - if we are mud or sand).

Eric, I think, has made a similar comment - do not carry one monster, suitable for that storm, but have something else that can be deployed (easily). Alloy fits part of the bill, because it is so user friendly (and all alloys are currently demountable - though we prefer to keep our Fortress assembled simply because it has a number of pieces and its advantageous to have it ready for instant deployment).

Provided the wind is not veering too much then 2 anchors set as a 'V' also reduce veering (like a bridle). The 'price' is the possible twist in the rodes if the wind veers too much.


Sitting watching the Hobart race. Comanche in the lead after the first hour.
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Old 12-26-2014, 09:30 AM   #53
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Minutiae not withstanding, Nigel Calder offered the same anecdotal thoughts and opinions as one can read in the past few months of TF threads and posts on anchoring. Calder in fact says his opinions are anecdotal which is fitting with anchors and anchoring in real life.

Why is this? As noted by Calder and us here, each anchor site, winds and bottom are different. But all seem in agreement that new design anchors appear to be better.

Missing from Calder's article and often forgotten on TF is the simple anecdotal finding that a Too Heavy older design anchor works very well also. Advertisers in PMM don't like to hear this and Calder and writers don't get published if old fashioned things hold sway.
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Old 12-26-2014, 09:35 AM   #54
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[QUOTE=Djbangi Sitting watching the Hobart race. Comanche in the lead after the first hour.[/QUOTE]

Any adverse conditions noted in the pre race weather briefings?
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Old 12-26-2014, 10:48 AM   #55
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I wish someone would tell this to a lot of the anchors I see



Merry Christmas everyone.
That looks like a Delta. If there is a hard substrate like shelf rock under the sand no anchor will set properly. That is the only condition that my Delta has not set in. I now have 3 anchors on board. One is the Sarca Excel on the bow, with a Delta and Danforth as backups. I don't anticipate needing the back ups, but you can't be too careful.
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Old 12-26-2014, 12:30 PM   #56
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That looks like a Delta. If there is a hard substrate like shelf rock under the sand no anchor will set properly.
Yes, it is a Delta.

There is a harder sand layer under the surface of this anchorage. The above performance is very typical of the Delta. It struggles to penetrate this layer.

The owner was unaware of any problem with the anchor, but underwater it is obvious the anchor is struggling.
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Old 12-26-2014, 12:32 PM   #57
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I guess I don't have the proper attitude for this topic as I've never felt strongly about one anchor over another and don't ever try to influence anyone else on one. Must be something wrong that I have no passion for anchors. I remember when I was young, seeing an old fisherman in a simple small aluminum boat and his anchor was a metal can/bucket that he'd filled with concrete. He still caught more fish than those in high powered bass boats with fancy anchors.
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Old 12-26-2014, 02:58 PM   #58
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BandB, where's your anchor spirit? You must be off your meds.
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Old 12-26-2014, 04:23 PM   #59
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Yes, it is a Delta.

There is a harder sand layer under the surface of this anchorage. The above performance is very typical of the Delta. It struggles to penetrate this layer.

The owner was unaware of any problem with the anchor, but underwater it is obvious the anchor is struggling.
But, did he drag, did he end up on the beach?
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Old 12-26-2014, 04:29 PM   #60
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Any adverse conditions noted in the pre race weather briefings?
Based on the Standings after 20 hours, almost, Comanche leads Wild Oats by a mile with the next 2 boats 20 miles behind. Though looking at the Tracker (the map) Wild Oats is ahead. I'm not sure which is correct. They are just about to cross from the mainland. The last forecast I heard was not worrying but boat speeds (for them) are low, 16 knots.

And I would guess at least 75% of the fleet carries 2 x Fortress, they obviously expect a lot of muddy anchorages
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