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Old 01-01-2015, 10:43 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by Djbangi View Post
As Noelex was unable to provide the formula this is a formula that John Knox used in one of his articles, 2002, and he cross referenced it to articles in YM 1099 and PBO 386 (which he might have written - but the formula could have been developed by A N Other).

Peak cable Tension in Kg

= (1/500) x (LOA metres - squared) x (wind speed knots squared)

The formula is contingent on the idea that wind resistance of a vessel is proportional to its frontal area and this roughly proportional to LOA squared. This might or might not be true of a yacht (modern yachts seem to have much higher windage than those of the 1990s) but I suspect not true of a trawler.

The formula completely falls apart if you try to apply it to 4 or 5 vessels rafted up.
This is a really important post, as it illustrates how relatively manageable the forces usually are when anchoring. Delfin, at 55 ft, would generate an instantaneous pull on the rode of around 2,200 pounds in 40 knots of wind. However, that force can be magnified if applied suddenly, as when the rode comes up short as the vessel moves aft. This is why it is so important for a good snubbing system to be in place on a vessel if it wants to survive most any conditions for the simple reason that whatever the forces are in instantaneous conditions, if you dissipate them over the stretching distance of a properly designed snubber, you are going to do just fine. And this underscores that as important as anchor design may be, proper anchoring technique is even more important.
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Old 01-01-2015, 10:43 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
Not that I am here to sell Ultras but did they not test fairly well in the Fortress test? The shine and sleek shape I find seems to have an added benefit in mud. I have the impression that the anchor comes up cleaner and washes of easier than some other anchors I have owned, but all this is outside of the target range which is the Fortress test and how it relates to the questions raised regarding the other than Fortress anchors. If my whole post is contemplated rather than part out of context the need for ultra bashing disappears.
We are simply jealous. The Ultra is the most beautiful anchor on the market (or I think so) and it works in most seabeds (and as you suggest does not collect mud). Personally I do not understand how you and Delfin have the heart to bury it, specially in mud. I would need to padlock it to the bow roller (and throw away the key). Anyway my wallet is slim and very difficult to open.
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Old 01-01-2015, 10:53 PM   #243
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We are simply jealous. The Ultra is the most beautiful anchor on the market (or I think so) and it works in most seabeds (and as you suggest does not collect mud). Personally I do not understand how you and Delfin have the heart to bury it, specially in mud. I would need to padlock it to the bow roller (and throw away the key). Anyway my wallet is slim and very difficult to open.
The Ultra is a great anchor. It certainly is better than the 176# Claw I had, and that was a very fine anchor, saving our bacon in 55 knots, pitch black drag and you're doomed conditions.

But they are very expensive and I think there are other anchors that are almost as good in performance in wide ranging conditions that cost less. I look at it as insurance, although I will be major bummed if I ever lose it.
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:03 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
So I have a Bruce and a Fortress. So anchor #2 by popular acclaim is taken care of. What anchor would I best be advised to purchase in the 85# area that would replace my (never drags & always sets) foundation ready Bruce and fits in the same length anchor "bed"?


I can't take this abuse anymore!
Tom, you may want to check out AA ( anchorers anonymous ). There you can confess that you have a second generation anchor and that you think that is ok among friends similarly deluded. Who knows, someday you may be able to conquer your addiction to safe anchoring with an anchor that doesn't cost 4 times what it is worth.

Gotta go, need to polish my Ultra. (have you seen my Ultra?)
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:14 PM   #245
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This statement may be off target but I had specified a Ronka for my new build and the anchor was delivered to the boat. Within a few days of that delivery I went to a local boat show where there was a Ultra display. After examining the anchor and speaking with the people there including somebody from the factory in Turkey I was impressed with the quality of workmanship particularly when compared to the Ronka and some other anchors. I told the builder of my boat and he said he can return the Ronka and we picked up the ultra right off the show display. This information of course says noting about function but about nice art and workmanship which I admire in all things marine be it an anchor or the sheer line of a lobster boat..
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:21 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
This statement may be off target but I had specified a Ronka for my new build and the anchor was delivered to the boat. Within a few days of that delivery I went to a local boat show where there was a Ultra display. After examining the anchor and speaking with the people there including somebody from the factory in Turkey I was impressed with the quality of workmanship particularly when compared to the Ronka and some other anchors. I told the builder of my boat and he said he can return the Ronka and we picked up the ultra right off the show display. This information of course says noting about function but about nice art and workmanship which I admire in all things marine be it an anchor or the sheer line of a lobster boat..
Excepting the restriction of my tight wallet - my experiences exactly. Lovely group of guys out of Istanbul, when you see the way the anchors are assembled (in my case only from pictures) - but very impressive. The new fillet inside the shank to add strength, very clever. Amongst the 'others' did well in the Chesapeake mud. What's not to like, except $

edit: I'm firmly of the view $ should not come into a decision on buying an anchor. In the grand scheme of things (just think of your annual insurance) the cost of the anchor is not much (actually and do not tell Brian but anchors are cheap for what we expect them to do). But its still a lot

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Old 01-02-2015, 05:02 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
Djbangi asked about the SuperMax earlier, and I see that's included in the Sailing Foundation tests... identified as MAX 17, which IIRC is the non-pivoting version.

I can't interpret the charts exactly without the key to asterisk and footnotes, but it looks like it did well enough (in some chart columns) -- when set properly. Second only to the FX-37, I think?
Chris, here is a link, to the full test without the footnotes cut off. It has quite a bit of extra detail as well:


http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/...or%20study.pdf
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:05 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Djbangi View Post
Noelex,

Maybe, for the common good, you could share Prof Knox formula.

I see you have already posted the formula, which is correct.

This is a link to the two anchor test reports written by Prof Knox for Practical Boat Owner. As well as explaining the formula which I used it has several others derived from this which are useful:

http://www.stfeurope.com/pdf/Practic...Owner-2002.PDF

The two anchor tests are well worth reading. Prof Knox included some veering tests. The results for the Danforth anchors fit in exactly with my observations of the behaviour of Danforth/Fortress anchors underwater to a change in the direction of pull.

You can read the full tests for yourself in the link above. (Both tests are on the one PDF).

He has written some later tests. I will see if I can find my links for these. They are also well worth reading.
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Old 01-02-2015, 05:40 AM   #249
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What a difference 4 years make

Noelex,

I post your comments from above. This the first quote.

I then post some comments from a thread on another forum of 4 years ago. You were much milder in your ability to condemn either Danforth or Fortress then and you, I think, agree that genuine Danforths are like hens teeth in the Med. You seldom if ever see, or I do not recall your ever reporting seeing, a Fortress as the primary anchor in the Med, or anywhere you have been.

So on what evidence do you have that supports your repeated condemnation of both brands.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats
Noelex how often do you think a Fortress would be likely to fail?

In most cases an anchor that develops a high list like the Danforth/Fortress when changing direction will reset in the new direction without any problems. However, it is very disconcerting to see an anchor with very little grip on the bottom as it rotates. A gust at the wrong time, when the anchor is rotating, will see the anchor sliding backwards.

Underwater, I see Fortress/Danforth anchors develop this high list with minimal grip of the flukes quite frequently. In most cases the anchor will reset without the skipper realising there is a problem. Occasionally a gust at the wrong time will see the anchor dragging. Once moving an anchor is unlikely to grip again. This is a much greater problem in strong wind.

In practice, the dragging problems with a change of direction of pull are only infrequent, but observing underwater, the difficulty of these anchors rotating are very common and obvious. They are much worse than most anchors when changing direction.

If there is risk of a significant change in the direction of pull, I don't consider the Danforth/Fortress anchor a good option. This must be weighed against the extraordinary holding power of the Danforth/Fortress in medium/soft substrates when the direction of pull is constant.

The idea is to maximise the attributes of the anchor.

As a secondary anchor the direction of pull tends to be constant. The very high holding power of the Fortress anchor for the weight make it the best secondary anchor available, hence its popularity in this role.

As a primary anchor I think there are better alternatives.

Happy new year everyone.

end quote

quote:

DogWatch
20-12-10, 00:11
I haven't.

I have anchored all kinds of craft with Danforth type anchors, (mainly in sand or mud on the west coast admittedly). I have anchored large MFV in 30m in bouncy conditions all day, I have anchored yachts, angling boats, dinghies you name it, deep water, shallow water, vertical rope rode depths at times; Until I took over my current boat I always use(d) a danforth with a usual rule of thumb, 1ft in length to 1lb of anchor.

As far as I am aware I have never dragged the anchor, never broken out without a reset, never lost the boat on a danforth.

This whole debate is turning into lazy speak,

Jaguar X type, just a mondeo
Catamaran, will capsize
Danforth, will not reset if you more than sneeze on board.

I have a Delta for every day use but have a big F-OFF danforth on the fordeck that I have used occasionally with great satisfaction and security.

So has anyone any real life experience of losing grip completely with a danforth style, or is this more media hype?


Salty John
20-12-10, 09:15
The Danforth is a good anchor in mud, it's the anchor of choice on Chesapeake Bay, for instance, which is all mud. You have to get the right size, about a pound a foot; note that the makers recommend lighter anchors for a given boat size than that.

Woodlouse
20-12-10, 09:59
I've seen Danforths where after a wind shift the stock has bent rather than the anchor breaking free. I believe the combination of size, weight and holding power is quite difficult to beat, and it stows flat.


noelex
20-12-10, 12:22
I often snorkel around the anchors of yachts anchored near me.
To watch them rotate when there is a new wind direction is always interesting (at least to me).
The Danforth anchor sometimes breaks during this rotation. It seems to pivot on the long stock tipping the anchor at a large angle and breaking it out. It will not always do this, but often enough to be of concern. I have not yet formed any conclusions under what circumstances (bottom type etc) makes the anchor more prone to this behavior.

This observation does agree with reports of Danforforth anchors breaking out on large wind or tide shifts. It is often stated this breakout occurs because the rode catches under the stock. This is also a possible mechanism, but generally, if well set, the stock is buried and I personally do not think this is a frequent cause of the problem.

I am interested if the Fortress exhibits the same behavior. I own a Fortress as kedge, but it is a little too small to be used as a main anchor (it does have very good holding power however). There is some evidence that the Fortress breaks out much less often, but unfortunately there are not many Yachts in the Med that use this as there main anchor and I have only managed to observe them occasionally rotating. I have not observed them breaking out, but the sample size is too small to draw meaningful conclusions.

ChrisE
20-12-10, 12:52
I haven't.


So has anyone any real life experience of losing grip completely with a danforth style, or is this more media hype?

My 23' fishing boat has a Danforth as its main anchor and yes it has broken out in strong currents and deep water (I often anchor in 100+ ft) especially with a fair chop. That said, it holds better than its predecessor, a delta.

I anchor where yachts would probably not choose to, in places such as reefs and rips, which is where the fish live. Perhaps of more interest is that I've never had the anchor pull out on a tide change.

If you look at charter fishing boats most have danforths, certainly in the IoW and surrounds.

So, in sum, I'd agree that the danforth is under-rated.

electrosys
21-12-10, 14:19
I've seen Danforths where after a wind shift the stock has bent rather than the anchor breaking free.
This is a good point - people talk about Danforths as if they are all of the same quality - which they're not. I've seen some Danforth-pattern anchors in which the stock was made from steel which was far too thin, as were the flukes. Cheap and nasty. They just looked like anchors.


RobHom
23-12-10, 02:18
I don't use a standard Danforth....but rather a "Fortress" danforth style anchor:
http://www.fortressanchors.com/fortress_anchors.html I can honestly say that this anchor has never "dragged"...I have set it in sand, hand bottom and even hard clay... But then the Fortress anchors are engineered differently than standard danforths.

My other anchors are CQR's...and they are quite good...but I still tend to favor my Fortress....
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:58 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelex View Post
Chris, here is a link, to the full test without the footnotes cut off. It has quite a bit of extra detail as well:


http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/...or%20study.pdf

Thanks, more interesting, that way.

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Old 01-02-2015, 09:03 AM   #251
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Jonathan, firstly let me say I have never "condemned" the Fortress. Since you have gone back looking at my posts from four years ago you will see I have repeatedly, and consistently stated that the Fortress is best secondary anchor available. I have stressed its phenomenal holding power in soft substrates and I have urged cruising boats to go out and buy one, as a near essential purchase.

Where we do disagree is in the ability of a Fortress anchor to respond to a change in direction of pull. I am certainly not alone with this concern. You know it is an issue that is raised frequently by many people.

The reduced holding with a side load was even noted by Sail Magazine during recovery, in the recent Fortress test:
"Side loading can also cause anchors to break out. This was made apparent when we tried to recover the FX 37. It would not release from the bottom even though the load on the rode approached 4,000 lbs. But when the boat yawed approximately 30 degrees off line, putting some side-loading in the anchor, it released easily."

In this very thread, Eyschulman has given the sort of practical example that is frequently heard:
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
The only times I dragged were once on Barnegat bay when a Danforth encountered a 180 degree wind shift with moderate gusts causing a complete break away with no reset a clogged anchor
I understand, that personally, you always use at least two anchors if the wind is predicted to be 30 knots or over. So perhaps it is an issue that you have not seen. That's fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djbangi View Post
I then post some comments from a thread on another forum of 4 years ago. You were much milder in your ability to condemn either Danforth or Fortress then and you, I think, agree that genuine Danforths are like hens teeth in the Med.
For some unfathomable reason, you have reproduced a whole thread from another forum, which is a bit confusing, as all the formatting has been lost. Please note only one of the posts from 2010 is mine. This is not very clear.

As to the detail I disagree. From your quote, apparently from something I posted over 4 years ago, I gave a nice description of exactly the mechanism of breakout of the anchor, as I had observed underwater:
"The Danforth anchor sometimes breaks during this rotation. It seems to pivot on the long stock tipping the anchor at a large angle and breaking it out. It will not always do this, but often enough to be of concern. I have not yet formed any conclusions under what circumstances (bottom type etc) makes the anchor more prone to this behavior."

I am puzzled why you feel I should not be permitted to comment on this, or almost any anchoring issue. I get the impression that only people that agree with your views are qualified to post. This is a forum, let us embrace our different points of view, always bearing in mind these are lumps of steel (and aluminium ) that we throw on the sea floor.
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:09 AM   #252
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If anyone enjoyed reading the other tests I posted links to, this one is less relevant to the current discussion, but covers some more modern anchors such as the Spade, Rocna, Manson Supreme etc.

Hopefully it is more interesting than reading about me

http://www.stfeurope.com/pdf/Practic...Owner-2011.pdf
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:28 AM   #253
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Okay you two... LET IT GO!!! Neither will convince the other that they are the final authority or that they know best, so please stop fanning the flame war or the mod team is going to step in.

Please discuss your differences elsewhere. Why not meet for a beer?

Thanks.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:13 AM   #254
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Noelex,

You never miss the opportunity on a boating thread about anchoring (even here, and you don't own a trawler) to ignore all evidence that is contrary to your beliefs, no matter how credible the source, whether it be actual users or in tests, and you will continue to disparage our product in regards to its performance during wind or tidal shifts.

Earlier in this thread you mentioned that you have had 8 years of observing our anchor failing in this occurrence, and in the post above from 4 years ago, you stated: "I have not observed them breaking out, but the sample size is too small to draw meaningful conclusions."

So where are all the images of these failings during the past 4 years, of Fortress, or even other Danforth type anchors? And now on the Cruisers Forum, you are suddenly posting images of a tiny Guardian anchor, as some form of proof?

You obviously misinterpreted the comment that you posted from Sail magazine, I suspect purposely, regarding the recent test: "Side loading can also cause anchors to break out," as he was only using the Fortress as an example to make his point because it was buried so deeply and was so difficult to recover. We even broke the cable once at 3,500 lbs and lost the Fortress anchor during this process, evidence that once again you chose to ignore.

I have also seen you disparage the performance of Anchor Right's products, while similarly ignoring any evidence of their superb performance as well.

Meanwhile, you have continuously promoted the over-sized 125 lb / 55 kg Mantus with the bent shank on your boat, and prior to that, a comparably oversized Rocna.

I have to wonder what anchor of that size wouldn't perform superbly on your 48-ft boat, particularly in the conditions where you anchor, which are calm and clear enough to continuously post images on Cruisers Forum of the sea bottom....and from what I have observed, those bottoms are typically optimal for holding.

I don't understand what your agenda might be, and I won't publicly state my suspicions, but your call to "embrace our points of view" is shallow given the above.

Regards,
Brian
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:15 AM   #255
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Quote:
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Chris, here is a link, to the full test without the footnotes cut off. It has quite a bit of extra detail as well:

http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/...or%20study.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
Thanks, more interesting, that way.
-Chris

Hmmm... in retrospect, something didn't sound quite right with that MAX 17 being listed as 43-lbs in the test data, so I looked a little at the current Creative Marine website... such as it is.

Not the clearest info presentation in the free world, but I gather their (his?) original anchor was rigid and called a MAX. This original MAX 17 -- perhaps what was current at the time of these tests? -- may have weighed 43-lbs; can't tell.

The current non-pivoting anchor is apparently called a Super Max Rigid Anchor, and a "MAX 17" (as identified in their table of Super Max Rigid Anchors) weighs 54 lbs. (The same table says their current MAX 16 rigid weighs 47-lbs.)

The current pivoting anchor is apparently called a Super Max --- wait for it -- Pivoting Arm Anchor (who'd have thunk?), and a "MAX 17" (as identified in their separate table of Super Max Pivoting Arm Anchors) weighs 50 lbs. (The same table says their current MAX 16 pivoting weighs 44-lbs.)

I see no 43-lb MAX in either current table.

I can only guess that maybe some evolution occurred in names and/or weights, maybe both, somewhere along the way. There is some mention that "the Rigid and Pivoting Arm Super Max anchors have recently been improved" -- but the website still looks to me pretty much like it did way back when we bought our SM anchor... so I'm guessing no (or minimal) website edits since 2003-ish or earlier...

In any case, maybe current products don't quite match exactly what U.S. Sailing was testing at the time.

Just in case anyone is interested...

-Chris
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:39 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Gotta go, need to polish my Ultra. (have you seen my Ultra?)

I have tried to see your anchor but the razor wire fence and pit bulls kept me at bay. I do note with optimism the marina supplied carts are very sturdy.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:41 AM   #257
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I bought a "15lb" Manson Supreme and it weighs 18lbs.

Almost makes one think the roll bar was added later and the specs never caught up w the product. Of course a "25lb" MS probably weighs 28lbs. Not to my liking.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:47 AM   #258
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Chris, I have a copy of the complete report and will dig through it to see if I can find answers for you.

Eyschulman & Delfin, it pains me to admit that given its beauty, the stainless steel Ultra was the only one aboard for the testing which the Captain insisted that we lock away for safe keeping every night.

Thankfully, the foul-smelling Chesapeake Bay mud did tarnish it up a bit, so I was not quite so green with envy by the end of the testing.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:49 AM   #259
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Meanwhile, you have continuously promoted the over-sized 125 lb / 55 kg Mantus with the bent shank on your boat, and prior to that, a comparably oversized Rocna.
Pi$$ing contests aside, many very smart boaters and builders go with over-sized anchors, especially on non planing vessels where weight is of little concern. No downside is there, other than prurient interests?
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:12 PM   #260
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Thread closed for an undisclosed cool down period.

Everyone can enjoy a respite for anchor management.
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