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Old 01-24-2011, 12:58 AM   #21
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

I agree with the 180 degree bit. The thing that turned me off this whole "trip slot" thing were the comments that when the boat gets off at 90 degrees or so, this is when the shackle can start sliding down to the fluke end. And when it gets there it doesn't take much pull to un-set the anchor. The people relating these experiences felt that had the rode been attached to the shank in the conventional manner, it would have taken a lot more pull to haul the anchor out of the bottom. But once the shackle slid down to the fluke end it took relatively little pull (they said) to un-set it.

We don't use a trip line if we know or read that the bottom is free of things like logging cables, chains, sunken logs and whatnot. Our basic rule is that if we know or read/hear that the bottom in an anchorage has a reputation for having debris, or if it's a new anchorage to us and we have no definitive information one way or the other, we use the trip line.
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:34 AM   #22
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Anchor slot/hole

Morning Marin,
Maybe but maybe not. The shank will have a great deal more leverage applied to it w the rode attached to the end of the shank as opposed to the middle. Should be levered out more easily when attached to the end I would think. However, the rode attached to the middle of the shank is closer to the flukes and THAT may pull it out where as attached to the end may just rotate the buried anchor??? Too much swimming to find out.

"The people relating these experiences felt that" Yea people feel all kinds of things.
Consider all the wild things I've "felt" in the past. But I'm not criticizing your saying they felt this or that as all things should be considered but much should be taken w a grain of salt.
I think I should be using the trip line all the time. Are you not using the trip line based on what people "felt" was down there? There are places like Echo Bay where so many boats anchor so much of the time one could assume***** .....but ask Paul Graff about assuming.



-- Edited by nomadwilly on Monday 24th of January 2011 10:50:00 AM
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:38 AM   #23
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Who uses a trip line with an all chain rode, 60 - 100 # anchors and where/when?
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:59 PM   #24
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

1. The shank will have a great deal more leverage applied to it w the rode attached to the end of the shank as opposed to the middle.

2. Are you not using the trip line based on what people "felt" was down there?
1. Whenever the direction of pull is not countered by the maximum fluke resistance, the possibiity of the anchor coming out goes up.* When the shackle holding the rode slides down to the fluke end of the shank, regardless of whatever leverage there may be the pull is now being applied at an angle with greatly reduced resistance from the fluke or even the least resistance from the fluke.

2. We go on what other boaters have experienced or know regarding the nature of the bottom.* If it's a new anchorage to us and we can't get any firsthand information as to the nature of the bottom, we'll use the trip line. We're not too interested in what someone might "feel" is down there, but we are interested in what they may know is down there.* If nobody knows, we'll use the line.
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Old 01-25-2011, 05:26 AM   #25
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Marin, you are right, the Sarca and the Manson Supreme are indeed different, in fact the elongated slot and the roll-bar is the only similarity. Do you have any links to these stories of Mansons un-setting with the slot in use? I am genuinely intrigued to get to the bottom of this. The fact that the only time one would be concerned re an un-set being when the wind and/or current get up, and in this scenario, the probability of the shackle slowly wandering down the shank towards the fluke seems most unlikely because of the tension which would be on it keeping it at the end of the shank. I have certainly never heard of a Sarca doing this. The one explanation I can think of for the different performance is the fact that the Manson has a concave, as opposed to more traditional convex fluke shape. Sarca experimented with the concave, but found it did not really enhance holding, but did gouge huge chunks of seabed up, and maybe it is this large wedge of material held in the dislodged fluke which causes it to not re-set properly, which is presumably what these folk have complained of. Otherwise, these roll-over anchors re-set so quickly, they would normally not even notice it had happened. The Sarca fluke, being convex shaped, not too different from the old plough, just turns round in the bottom subtrate without breaking out, or if it did break out, would re-set almost immediately as result of its sharp tip, and with no chunk of bottom filling the fluke. Does that theory sound reasonable to you?
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Old 01-25-2011, 02:24 PM   #26
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Quote:
Peter B wrote:Do you have any links to these stories of Mansons un-setting with the slot in use?
Unfortunately most of them were on the T&T list, which has about the most user-unfriendly search function on the planet.

I don't know enough about the differences between the Manson and Sarca designs to speculate on whether the Sarca is more resistant to this movement of the shackle down the slot when the boat is moved out to the side by the wind or current.* The only comments I have seen about this were with regards to the Manson.

There have been a few boats with Mansons in our part of the marina, most recently a new Ranger 29, *and I've*noticed that they--- and all the boats I've ever seen pictured with a Manson in magazines and whatnot--- have the rode*shackled to the*hole in the end of the shank, not the slot.

The slot is a clever idea, no question.* It's too bad the designer didn't figure out a foolproof way of letting the shackle slide down the slot to the fluke end only*when you wanted it to.
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:39 PM   #27
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Anchor slot/hole

I use the slot but I put a bolt through the slot to keep the attach point at the far end just above the regular hole. I feel the slightly elevated position of the shackle may help short scope performance. But until the wind was really scream'in* 2 or 300' of of chain would do more for short scope performance. I've only used the Manson Supreme several times and aren't thrilled w it judging how it sets. What do the experts on your float say about it Marin?
All the anchor pics I've seen that I can recall illustrate the shackle being attached w the shackle pin inserted through the hole in the shank. If Rick's explanation is correct one would think pictures of anchors would show shackles being installed the correct way, that is w the pin through the chain link and the closed end of the shackle through the small slot in the shank.

PS,
Peter,** your'e boat looks bigger from the stern but better from the bow.





-- Edited by nomadwilly on Tuesday 25th of January 2011 11:10:08 PM
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:45 PM   #28
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Anybody using this to save their anchor and rode?

http://www.anchorsaver.com/Anchor_Saver/Home.html
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:17 PM   #29
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Mark,
So if the shear bolt was for a 50' boat my little 37hp Willy would never be able to shear the bolt and I'd still loose my anchor.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:53 PM   #30
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Eric, they have several models, and selection*depends on anchor type and boat size.* I assume the manufacturer would say they have the right model for you and*"Little" Willy.

http://www.anchorsaver.com/Anchor_Sa...w_Anchors.html
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:26 AM   #31
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Anchor slot/hole

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

I've only used the Manson Supreme several times and aren't thrilled w it judging how it sets. What do the experts on your float say about it Marin?


Most of the anchoring "experts" I've talked to tend to favor "old generation" anchors since that's what they have, have used for years if not decades, and trust.* However I am seeing more Rocnas on boats around here, from sailboats to a 50' Nordhavn, and a lot of people on the GB owners forum have switched or are switching to them.

I don't know that I've read any specific comments saying the Manson's setting characteristics are less than ideal.* The only argument against them I recall reading are the comments about the slot I related earlier.

I suspect that with the appropriate rode, scope ratio, and setting technique, a Manson is a satisfactory anchor with regards to setting and holding.* The slot is the iffy item, not the basic anchor.

If one tries to use an inappropriate rode or too short of a scope or both I believe any anchor type short of a submerged tower skidder will prove to be problematic.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 26th of January 2011 01:27:46 AM
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:51 AM   #32
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Quote:
Marin wrote:

... *I am seeing more Rocnas on boats around here, from sailboats to a 50' Nordhavn, and a lot of people on the GB owners forum have switched or are switching to them.
They're behind the times.* They need to spend two or three times as much and get the Ultra anchor from Quickline to be up-to-date.

*
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:34 AM   #33
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Quote:
Marin wrote:If one tries to use an inappropriate rode or too short of a scope or both I believe any anchor type short of a submerged tower skidder will prove to be problematic.

Good statement. Let's try changing just a few words.

If one uses an appropriate rode, & a scope that is long enough or both, I believe any anchor type, short of a submerged tower skidder will prove to be adequate.** (yes/no?)
*
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:31 AM   #34
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Anchor slot/hole

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:

*
Marin wrote:If one tries to use an inappropriate rode or too short of a scope or both I believe any anchor type short of a submerged tower skidder will prove to be problematic.

Good statement. Let's try changing just a few words.

If one uses an appropriate rode, & a scope that is long enough or both, I believe any anchor type, short of a submerged tower skidder will prove to be adequate.** (yes/no?)
I don't really agree with that because I think some anchor designs are just not suited for some bottoms.* I personally don't think the Bruce design is suited for ANY bottom when scaled down to the size most recreational boaters use, but a perhaps more universally accepted view is that the Danforth design is not well suited for rocky bottoms or weedy bottoms.* So even with the right rode and scope this anchor may not set or hold well in those conditions.

Eric's continued attemts to anchor using off-the-shelf anchor types with a lightweight rode and a short scope I feel are self-defeating because what he's trying to do simply won't work reliably because he's flying in the face of physics, if you will.* A lighweight rode and a very short scope CAN work if you have a massive anchor that by its sheer size and weight will keep the boat in position.* Unfortunately, an anchor of this size will probably be too large and too heavy to carry conveniently on Willy's bow.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 26th of January 2011 12:32:57 PM
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:17 PM   #35
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

That would prolly be a 44lb claw, a 15lb Fortress, a 55lb Forfjord, a 35lb Delta, CQR or Danforth, a 25lb Spade, Sarca, Manson Supreme or Rocna or a 10lb Bubble.
"CAN work if you have a massive anchor that by its sheer size and weight will keep the boat in position.* Unfortunately, an anchor of this size will probably be too large and too heavy to carry conveniently on Willy's bow." Your'e suggesting I have both the heavy anchor and the heavy rode and throw in a winch too. If I was to get all this ground tackle I'd be out $6,000 dollars and add 500lbs to the bow of Willy. Unacceptable. The 15lb Fortress would probably hold Willy in a 50 knot blow w a rope rode at 5-1 scope. That's getting very close to acceptable so maybe if I use my Supreme w 12lbs of lead on the end of the shank I could anchor in rocks or hard grass. The possibilities sends my mind running everywhere. I think my best Idea is a 33lb claw w the 12lb lead ballast on it's shank w a small electric winch and all line rode. That would be $600 and less than 100lbs. Perhaps 10' of 1/2" chain but I don't know if I could easily pull that last 10'. Unless I think of something better I'll prolly try that.

*
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Old 01-26-2011, 01:27 PM   #36
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Eric---- I don't think the fundamental flaw in your quest is the type of anchor but your idea of using a very short scope, a minimum of weight in your rode, and a fairly light anchor. I completely understand your reasons for wanting to do each of these things, but I think you're running up against physics. Or geometry. Or both.

The conditions you've set for yourself seem to me a bit like the fellow who says "I want to build an airplane that will haul 10 people plus baggage but the wing span can only be 18 feet because that's how wide my hangar is." I think there are some things that simply don't work well regardless of the compelling reason to do it, and I believe you may have hit on one of them.

Most boaters, including the experienced ones who cruise a lot and anchor out frequently, seem to have a single setup they use under almost all conditions and it works great for them. Anchor sets well, stays set, doesn't drag, and so on. But so far as I've been able to tell, none of them are doing what you're trying to do. They use an appropriately sized anchor for their boat (or bigger), they use an appropriately-weighted rode, be it all-chain or combination, and they let out the amount of scope that's been proven for decades if not centuries to work. If this rig requires a powerful windlass to haul itl up, they have a powerful windlass. If they encounter an anchoring situation that this rig doesn't work for--- extremely deep anchorages with little swinging room, for example, they anchor someplace else.

It's interesting hearing about your attempts to find the solution to your challenge, and if you come up with one that truly works well I think what you learn will be of value for all of us. But at this point, anyway, from what you've related so far, he deck seems very much stacked against you.

What do you think?
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Old 01-26-2011, 06:05 PM   #37
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Very Very well put Marin. Especially "I want to build an airplane that will haul 10 people plus baggage but the wing span can only be 18 feet because that's how wide my hangar is."Makes me look a little foolish and I usually don't really like analogies but that's a good one. I like things the way I like'em. I decided I didn't want any seawater on my engine so I put all the seawater stuff elsewhere***** ....no problem. I don't want chain in my anchor locker, on my deck or anywhere. Don't want anymore weight than necessary and I actually have had anchors work well at less than 3-1 scope. I don't like the gypsy that does chain and line both. I think it must do damage to the line despite what some say. And unlike you I don't believe that the boat half of an all chain rode does anyone any good.So add my stubbornness to the equation as well. But I better cave in on someth'in here fairly soon as we're going to do a lot of boating this summer. That's honestly what I think**** ....since you asked so nicely.
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Old 01-26-2011, 06:31 PM   #38
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote: Makes me look a little foolish
I don't think it makes you look foolish at all because you are approaching the issue with what seems to me to be a high degree of thought and logic. And I do understand the reasoning behind what you're trying to do.* I just wonder if what you're aiming at isn't hittable.

The good news is that, whether you want it or not, *you have a completely workable Plan B.* This is to use a "conventional" setup of a right-size and weight*anchor and a long, right-size rode. This may preclude your anchoring in some of the places you'd like to anchor using your super-short scope, lightweight rode and lightweight anchor theory.* But as long as you have Plan B available, you can work on trying to gin up Plan A without the risk of being caught out*with no other option.
*
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Old 01-27-2011, 05:11 AM   #39
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RE: Anchor slot/hole

Eric
You are an experienced boat operator. Only you know the capabilities of Nomad Willy. Sometimes these threads get carried away for the sake of argument (imho). Rather than let myself and others argue the merits of brand XYZ, anchor flavor of the week- go with what YOU know works. A good compromise of safety and cost for your situation. Refuse to let the yachting establishment
dictate or make you second guess your choice.
Just because something is "old" and we are used to it, does not mean it is wrong or won't work.
You won't put your rig in harms way intentionally. Any anchor and rode that lets you sleep at night is the right choice. That is real "insurance". As Helen Keller said "security is an mostly an illusion"
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Old 01-27-2011, 05:59 AM   #40
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Anchor slot/hole

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:PS,

Peter,** your'e boat looks bigger from the stern but better from the bow.
________________________________________

Eric, she's swinging on the Sarca trying to reproduce this breaking out of the anchor thing.....
Seriously tho, Eric, what weight is your manson?* Like Marin, I also tend to feel you are backing yourself into a corner trying to meet all your particular criteria - something has to give, and the weight of the anchor is probably one.* Personally, I would love to see you fitted out with a number 5 Sarca, (mine is a number 6, 20kg (44lbs), and even if there are no US distributors yet, that may change.* However, you have a Manson Supreme, and looking up their website, the ideal M/S for your vessel is their 25 lb one, but I suspect you bought one smaller than that.* I think you worry too much about weight up front really.* My suggestion would be, either go with your nylon rode and 30 feet of 3/8 chain, and then put on the end of it your (?12 lb) Manson, but purchase an Anchor Buddy or equivalent, (type of sliding weight which can be lowered to the sea floor in iffy conditions, however there is debate re their effectiveness), or better still, sell your present M/S, and get one in the 25-30 lb range, better suited to your boat, and keep it simple.* You could feasibly hand pull a 25 lb'er, but your drum windlass idea would be better and much more enjoyable.* But please stop frigging round with all those other outmoded/weird designs....
*


-- Edited by Peter B on Thursday 27th of January 2011 07:34:12 AM
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