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Old 11-30-2012, 09:36 PM   #161
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I don't think so. Someone needing to anchor in deep water for whatever reason--- fishing or because the water where they boat is often very deep as it is up the BC coast and in SE Alaska--- would probably be interested in what Rocna or any other anchor manufacturer had to say on the subject. I just don't happen to know.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:52 PM   #162
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Interesting Rex,

But I see almost no difference between the Delta and the Excel. Look like both are Plow anchors to me.

Watching the video I really like the way the bottom that the SARCA lifts up goes neatly and gracefully through the roll bar opening and back to the sea floor. That has big plusses as to conservation but I think it also permits the SARCA to spend less effort messing up the surface and going deeper. Just an armchair projection though.

Re the difference between the Delta and the Excel I'm wondering if the Excel has a wider throat opening. If I was to buy a Delta I'd be tempted to shorten the shank about 3". If I was to shorten it 5 or 6" I would be concerned that setting may become difficult as the fluke tip would become slightly less parallel to the direction of travel while the anchor is being set. Shorten it enough and the fluke would be at right angles to the direction of travel. Comments?
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:08 PM   #163
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Bigger is better

Ithink you had better take a closer look Eric,the Delta turns over the substrate--Plowing-- the Excel clearly lays the substrate same side up.

Throat opening -- never should any one change alter an anchors design unless they have designed it themselves , that is the best advice I can give you, all anchor designs performance has many of key innovations that will never be picked up by the eye, enven the little one percenters when all put together make it happen , not much different to people, if you got the wrong DNA YOU CAN BE A BAS---D OF A thing all there-- its life and no modification or learning will improve either.

If it was all that easy it would not have taken 5 years of frustration-- determination, and yes our design to have been called a lot wers than a bast---d of a thing many times.

Remember you are tinkering for your self, we are tinkering for you, big difference.

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Old 11-30-2012, 10:22 PM   #164
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Eric, my primary anchor is a Delta. Secondary anchor is a Danforth. I usually do not anchor in water over 30' deep. In fact it is usually much shallower than that. Because many places we anchor are in gin clear water, I can snorkel and dive the anchor most times. Just to double check everything. I usually can also check it with my "lookie box" from the dinghy. Use 30' of chain and the rest 3/4" twisted nylon rode. I will not say that it sets instantly, as there are usually some tracks. It does set quickly, and will hold a hard pull of the boat. We usually use a 5 to 1 scope. If windy 7 to 1. Stormy 10 to 1.

Here we are anchored at Rodriguez Key in the Florida Keys. About 7' of water.

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Old 11-30-2012, 10:23 PM   #165
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Bigger is better

Best way to compare each design is to hit the pause button when they rear view comes up on the comparisons.

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Old 11-30-2012, 11:39 PM   #166
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OK Rex I see it. The shank seems to be attached more fwd on the Excel and the Delta's trailing edge probably flips the bottom a bit up in the air whereas the Excel allows the bottom to slide over the trailing edge kinda like the SARCA.

I'm not saying I'm going to or not going to modify any more anchors. I did that to an XYZ because the manufacturer would'nt sell me a nose piece ... so I made my own and I made it quite different. In the pics the pointed one is the original XYZ and the blunt chisel nose is mine. It worked flawlessly on a 1000 mile 33 day trip and I used it over half the time. So my track record on modifying anchors is perfect (so far) but I know I didn't find anything but a soft bottom each time I anchored w the modified XYZ as I feel quite sure on a hard or rocky bottom it probably would not set. And I'm sure you'll agree w me. But ..... anchoring is full of surprises.

By the way this is the anchor I was talking about w the heavy trailing edge that can transfer downward force to the "toe" to assist or facilitate setting.

What I'd like to know is does the throat angle affect the setting performance more or the holding performance? I haven't got any tools out here Rex ..... just armchair engineering w a non-engineer. I would imagine a wider throat angle would enhance short scope holding power. Basically I think that's what Fortress and Super Max anchors do their adjustable throat angle.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:01 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
I have understood the principle behind the CQR from the moment I first saw one. I know why it digs down and I know why it's supposed to "stop."

My dislike of the design compared to anchors like the spade, Bruce, Rocna, etc is that under a high load, and particularly in a less-than-firm bottom, where the other anchors "pile up stuff" in front of them which can help add to their resistance to the pull, the CQR is pointed in the direction of the pull. The angle of everything on it is aligned to move through material, not pile it up in front. It's why shovels don't have blades that look like CQR flukes.
That's because when you are using a shovel, you are wanting to dig out dirt, whereas with an anchor you want it to dig deep, but not bring up half the bottom - well that's what I want anyway. If you want to really dig deep you use a pick, right? Sharp & pointy. If you are securing a tent you hammer in tent pegs, not shovel shaped things. In other words, deeper is better...not wider.
Anyway, enough of that...this question of scope length is an interesting one. I think in deep water 3:1 is more practical and quite effective for two reasons - what ever the type of scope used the catenary is pretty high just because of the amount out, and the resulting vectors make the pull transmitted to the anchor correspondingly less.

The second reason is, let's face it, if you are anchoring in really deep water, then the bottom is far from your keel, so if you did drag a bit..so what? Unless you are in a rather weird place where the edges shelve really steeply, like a fjord or something, which is a pretty silly place to anchor anyway. So, if you did drag, (in a deep anchorage) it would probably not be far enough to matter, given reasonable room.
What say you Eric..Rex..?
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:28 AM   #168
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That's because when you are using a shovel, you are wanting to dig out dirt...
No, when I am using a shovel I want it to capture and hold dirt, not shed it off the sides. Digging out or digging in, that's irrelevant. What is relevant is how that blade, or fluke, acts on the dirt. A plow moves it aside, a piece of metal 90 degrees to it resists moving through it. Simple physics or geometry or whatever it is.

Stick your hand out the window of a moving car and hold it flat or even at a bit of an angle. No resistance. Turn your hand vertical, all sorts of resistance.

Under the right, or should I say wrong, circumstances an anchor with flukes angled to shed the bottom when it moves in the direction of pull is self-defeating. An anchor with flukes presenting their full width in opposition to the pull is not.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:49 AM   #169
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Have you watched the Video Marin, up there in Rex's post...?
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:58 AM   #170
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Yes.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:58 AM   #171
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...if you are anchoring in really deep water, then the bottom is far from your keel, so if you did drag a bit..so what? Unless you are in a rather weird place where the edges shelve really steeply, like a fjord or something..
Peter,if you know for sure the worst scenario is dragging "a bit" (a malleable term), then just maybe it is tolerable, but once you drag you drag, it may or may not reset,you may or may not be asleep or otherwise occupied, you make wake to a resounding crunch. Anchoring mid ocean is rare, it`s usually near that pretty bay shoreline. For me, a bit of drag is not ok, it means the set failed, at least to a degree, and it may or may not be fixed, either by us or by the anchor itself.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:25 AM   #172
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Bruce, I was thinking of the guys who sometimes anchor in over 50' or even 100' of water. Clearly there you have quite a bit of leeway before you would be hitting 'the edges' so to speak, so if you had the zone alarm set on the GPS, and the weather was not nasty, it would be a doddle. If nasty weather, then no way would I consider water that deep an anchorage really. But that's just me.
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:04 AM   #173
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In really deep water with near 50% chain and 50% line the scope can be greatly reduced.

150 ft of water , 200ft of chain and 250 of line works fine.

Most folks don't carry over 200 ft of chain as the weight gets substantial.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:52 AM   #174
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Peter,
Peter you really don't understand that in the PNW coast anchoring in 50 - 75' of water at 4-1 scope your boat hull may be on the beach. You wrote "then the bottom is far from your keel, so if you did drag a bit..so what?" .... So you would likely be crunching your hull on the beach.

How you respond to this gives me a bit of an idea about what it must be like to anchor in your world. And I now understand much more clearly why people think my anchoring at 3-1 is nuts.

And whoever said catenary in deep water and short scope got better .... no .... think about it ... if the anchor rode was vertical there would be no cat at all.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:21 PM   #175
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Eric brings up a good point. In this area---- particularly on up the coast in northern BC and SE Alaska-- the water depths can be fairly extreme because of the way the coast was formed or influenced by glaciers and whatnot. So it's not uncommon to find anchorages where the water is south of 100' deep and heading down fast just a few boat lengths from shore. While we have never ourselves anchored in these kinds of situations I'm sure Eric has, thus his desire for an effective anchor in short-scope conditions. I expect he'll find that's not such a requirement down here.

It's my understanding that there are some proven ways of dealing with this. One, which seems to be the most common, is to anchor the boat with the bow away from the shoreline in the shallowest water possible (allowing for the very high tidal range in this region) and secure the stern to the shore. This prevents the boat from swinging in the wind or current and pulling on the anchor from deeper water which could easily unset it.

But even doing this could mean an anchoring depth of 60, 70, 100, etc. feet.

Farther south, in Puget Sound, San Juan and Gulf Islands, and even Desolation Sound most anchorages are not that "radical." We have always been able to find "normal" anchorages where it's possible to anchor in 30-40 feet of water with plenty of swinging room for us and the other boats that were there.

I've posted this shot before from the Desolation Sound area and I suspect similar conditions can be found around the south island in New Zealand, but at the location where I took this photo the water depth in this fairly narrow passage was about 1,000.

The second photo shows the deepwater anchoring technique I described only in this location there are four mooring buoys anchored out in the deep water so you don't have to mess with getting an anchor down in the right place. You can see the stern lines running to shore from our and our friend's boats.

PS--- I should also add that this technique is also widely used here in small anchorages where stern tying is the only way to fit more than one or two boats into the anchorage. This is actually the real reason for the setup in my second shot. The water in the little cove, while deep, is not that deep.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:46 PM   #176
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Eric brings up a good point. In this area---- particularly on up the coast in northern BC and SE Alaska-- the water depths can be fairly extreme because of the way the coast was formed or influenced by glaciers and whatnot. So it's not uncommon to find anchorages where the water is south of 100' deep and heading down fast just a few boat lengths from shore. While we have never ourselves anchored in these kinds of situations I'm sure Eric has, thus his desire for an effective anchor in short-scope conditions. I expect he'll find that's not such a requirement down here.

It's my understanding that there are some proven ways of dealing with this. One, which seems to be the most common, is to anchor the boat with the bow away from the shoreline in the shallowest water possible (allowing for the very high tidal range in this region) and secure the stern to the shore. This prevents the boat from swinging in the wind or current and pulling on the anchor from deeper water which could easily unset it.

But even doing this could mean an anchoring depth of 60, 70, 100, etc. feet.

Farther south, in Puget Sound, San Juan and Gulf Islands, and even Desolation Sound most anchorages are not that "radical." We have always been able to find "normal" anchorages where it's possible to anchor in 30-40 feet of water with plenty of swinging room for us and the other boats that were there.

I've posted this shot before from the Desolation Sound area and I suspect similar conditions can be found around the south island in New Zealand, but at the location where I took this photo the water depth in this fairly narrow passage was about 1,000.

The second photo shows the deepwater anchoring technique I described only in this location there are four mooring buoys anchored out in the deep water so you don't have to mess with getting an anchor down in the right place. You can see the stern lines running to shore from our and our friend's boat.
That's the way we anchor in places like Teakerne Arm - drop the hook into deep water, back up to shallow then stern tie. As a rule of thumb, if the upslope is 20 degrees you only need to lay out 1.2 times the depth in rode to where you dropped the hook to achieve 3:1 scope. That is usually just fine, since with the stern tie, the anchor has to drag uphill for you to drag, and there is no swinging. In other words, drop in 100 feet, layout 120 feet and you have 3:1 scope relative to the bottom if the slope is 20 degrees.

Then again, if your stern ties comes loose, you're screwed....
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:12 PM   #177
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Well said Delfin and Marin,
Since Peters remark I now understand why many others here can't relate to some of the things we do up here. I've never done shore tying. Always seemed like too much trouble w the dinghy.

Been shopping today. Dropped Chris off at the store and I went on to Anacortes to an old marine goods store at the far north end of the main drag. Found the pump I was looking for. The other thing I found gives me the right to be here on the "big is better" thread. Found a 45# Dreadnought anchor. Gave the guy $95 for it so now I'm a member of the bigger is better club. Of course a 45# anchor for a 30' boat is somewhat of a monster but my friend in Alaska has a 65# Forfjord on his 30' Willard. I don't think I'll be in need of more holding power but in anchoring the door is open to strange things happening.

Here is a pic of the 34# Dread and the 45# Dread is just the same. We weighed it in the store to make sure it was a heavier anchor than I already have. The other picture or pictures is of Ed's boat and it shows how he mounts his anchor and I plan to follow suite and have my yard do the FG mod work on the bow to accommodate the newly acquired Dreadnough. I really like his very clean and tidy anchor installation. Next to nothing sticking out to get damaged while hitting a piling or? It looks so much cleaner too and the entire anchor will be below the rail so my view fwd will be even slightly better than it is now.

I've preached about putting the ground tackle weight into the anchor instead of the rode so I'm taking my own advice. I'll be looking for a short piece of heavy chain to help keep the long heavy shank down low but the rest of the rode will be nylon line as it is now. Would like to get a better drum for the capstan.

The new anchor is in good shape but I will take it apart, check things over and have it re-galvanized. A bit different than Ed's boat my bow rail will be open in a bit of a "V" so the shank will be placed in the V slot and the bow roller. The bronze bow chock will be removed on my boat.
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:30 PM   #178
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.............
PS--- I should also add that this technique is also widely used here in small anchorages where stern tying is the only way to fit more than one or two boats into the anchorage. This is actually the real reason for the setup in my second shot. The water in the little cove, while deep, is not that deep.
The second one looks like Buchart Gardens.


In Laura cove (Desolation Sound B.C.), we're anchored in 75' of water and ran a 150' line to shore. To run anything more than a 3/1 scope is hard when depth is a major factor.


It's not uncommon to anchor in 75' +. In the pic we're in our old 23' Cuddy and I carried 20' chain and 200' rode. I wish I had the 50' of chain I carry now in our 26' Cruiser.
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:36 PM   #179
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Quite right, here in Moreton bay the deepest I have anchored is off Tangalooma Resort in 12 ~ metres of water. Usually it is more like 3-4 metres. I have done the really deep with sharply shelving depths in Lake Taupo in NZ, and there we did do the way Delfin & Marin just described with anchor our as far as possible on the down slope of the bottom, and stern in to the beach/bank and a land based tie - hopefully to a stout tree, or around a large boulder. As least best choice one of those screw into the ground types of peg.
So, Eric my man, I can certainly sympathise, and empathise with your need up in Alaska for a short scope capable set-up, but as Marin says, things should be easier where your now. However, I agree with that Dreadnaught thing you have now, you should not drag anywhere...just be careful not to wreck your back old son.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:06 PM   #180
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Dropped Chris off at the store and I went on to Anacortes to an old marine goods store at the far north end of the main drag.
Next time you're there, make sure you go into the very back and rummage around. They have every piece of inventory they have purchased but not sold for 50 years back there.
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