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Old 11-26-2012, 12:35 AM   #81
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I found it 'disturbing' to find our new to us boat came with a 7.5kg Bruce and 15' of chain, when 10kg and 30' of chain is recommended. (note to self - check chain / rode size).

Sundowner Tugs present a pretty broad face to the wind and a pretty broad bow to the waves, so I think we'll go to 15kg with 30' of chain, and get a better nights sleep.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:50 AM   #82
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Yes Andy it/they would work with any type of rode, because they all work on a magnetic pulse picked up by sensos as the gypsy rotates past them... Once calibrated, it is the complete rotations that are counted, so the type of rode is immaterial.
The unit (CruzPro) I picked up in Auckland and fitted is available world wide.. Maxwell and Muir have their (more expensive) version, as do other makers.
I have to actually do the hard job of watching the counter, and glancing at the chain coming on board when recovering to spot my painted last 2 metres of chain. When it's all in, it reads 0000, funny that.
CruzPro Marine Instruments
My Muir Carnivore(a Cheetah or Cougar) retrieves at a leisurely 46ft per minute. Any slower I`d be timing it with a calendar. With no counter and the crew checking colored cable ties coming back onboard, it is a bit of a guess. One of the best uses of a counter must be knowing you hit bottom to begin paying out. Easier with a rope rode which helpfully coils on the surface when you hit bottom.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:02 AM   #83
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I found it 'disturbing' to find our new to us boat came with a 7.5kg Bruce and 15' of chain, when 10kg and 30' of chain is recommended. (note to self - check chain / rode size).
I minor impediment; readily corrected.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:56 AM   #84
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Found this chart for Bruce anchors. What do you think?

Looks like a formation of DC-3s. Aesthetic, historical, and of absolutely no use whatsoever in today's world.
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:05 AM   #85
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Looks like a formation of DC-3s. Aesthetic, historical, and of absolutely no use whatsoever in today's world.
Easy Marin, you could've broken it to him a bit more gently.....
Actually, seriously now...the thing that has always worried me about that type, (assuming it has set and dug well in), is the huge amount of force all concentrated on that quite thin neck of the right angled part of the shank that is all that connects it to the flukes.
I'd be interested in your view on that aspect Eric...
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:32 AM   #86
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Found this chart for Bruce anchors. What do you think?
My experience using either a Bruce or a Claw for 30 years is that the chart is off by two sizes in the lighter weights and one size in the heavier, if you want the anchor to be 100% effective 100% of the time. The Bruce design will always land with the tip and one fluke on the sea bed - it is completely unstable in any other position. The question then becomes how deep will it dig, and that is a function of weight, so heavier is better.

Anchors like the Rocna depend on a sharp tip to perform well, which is why the original owner of the company insisted on never letting a stock Rocna be used for testing - it always had to be one with the tip sharpened.

Either style will keep your boat in place if sized right, although as noted elsewhere, I think the roll bar on the Rocna type is as much an impediment as a design feature.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:37 AM   #87
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Easy Marin, you could've broken it to him a bit more gently.....
Actually, seriously now...the thing that has always worried me about that type, (assuming it has set and dug well in), is the huge amount of force all concentrated on that quite thin neck of the right angled part of the shank that is all that connects it to the flukes.
I'd be interested in your view on that aspect Eric...
Peter, you didn't ask me, but all of these are cast, and they are quite thick where the stock attaches. I think on mine, it must be 2 inches thick or so. Not likely to break there, and whatever force was required to do so would turn the shank of a Rocna (especially the new, improved ones made out of sub standard steel) into art deco.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:40 AM   #88
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Looks like a formation of DC-3s. Aesthetic, historical, and of absolutely no use whatsoever in today's world.
Ahhh, but are you not aware that it was I who began the Sarca Excel thread
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:46 AM   #89
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Found this chart for Bruce anchors. What do you think?
I think it's good information. It never hurts to use a larger anchor or more chain if your boat can handle it.

My boat came with the 22 lb claw but I upsized to the 33 lb just for peace of mind. The original was a bit rusty and slightly bent anyway.

A claw anchor works well in my area but may not be the best everywhere. Look around the local marinas and/or talk to other boaters about what works best in your area. Some cruisers carry multiple anchors just for different bottoms.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:50 AM   #90
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...the thing that has always worried me about that type, (assuming it has set and dug well in), is the huge amount of force all concentrated on that quite thin neck of the right angled part of the shank that is all that connects it to the flukes.
I'd be interested in your view on that aspect Eric...
Not Eric, but these anchors have been around for a long time and apparently that has not been a problem so while it might look like a weak spot, it apparently isn't..
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:41 PM   #91
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Easy Marin, you could've broken it to him a bit more gently.....
Actually, seriously now...the thing that has always worried me about that type, (assuming it has set and dug well in), is the huge amount of force all concentrated on that quite thin neck of the right angled part of the shank that is all that connects it to the flukes.
I'd be interested in your view on that aspect Eric...
Peter,
Not sure what part of the Claw "thin neck" is but I think it would be the part between the straight part of the shank that attaches the shank to the flukes that is at right angles to the shank. How'm I do'in?
If that's so I've seen quite a few Claws In Craig AK on fishing boats that have been bent. I saw one poor old Claw that had seen so much use that the hole in the end of the shank for the rode attachment was worn so badly that perhaps only 1/16" of metal remained where the shackle attaches and pulls. Couldn't believe the anchor was still on the bow of the boat. I've never seen a Claw "neck" bent or broken but seen many outboard flukes bent and a few shanks but not the neck. One would think twisting forces would seriously threaten the neck but I have yet to see one altered by force.

Here is what more typically happens to the Claws when used in Alaska by fishermen. I've never seen a Claw bent by a pleasure boater. THese observations would lead one to think the "neck" was the least vulnerable to structural failure. That's what I've seen and think. So I agree with Ron.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:45 PM   #92
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The Bruce design will always land with the tip and one fluke on the sea bed - it is completely unstable in any other position.
It can also land upside down in which position it unfortunately is very stable. See my photos in the Sarca Excel thread.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:04 PM   #93
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The Claw will obviously not assume a position vertically upside-down. Upside-down it is canted a bit to one side and one fluke is nearly straight down and presenting about 40% of it's weight to that fluke tip whereas the Rocna's fluke tip only presents 32% of it's weight to the fluke tip and it is by no means directed nearly straight down but very sideways. In this respect Marin the Claw is quite superior to the Rocna.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:52 PM   #94
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In this respect Marin the Claw is quite superior to the Rocna.
Well, no it isn't. See Rex's comments about their observations about what can happen when a Bruce lands upside down. I've also seen a video showing what can happen back when we were researching what anchor to get when we decided to ditch our Bruce. Yes, it can dig in and set if it lands upside down. Unfortunately, there are also conditions in which it won't, which it turns out are the same conditions under which a rollbar anchor does so well in slicing down through the bottom and setting.

Sorry, Eric. You can defend the armchair theory behind the Bruce/Claw's behavior all you want but as far as I'm concerned there are too many proven and documented deficiencies in the design to make it anything we're going to trust our boat to. At least not in the anchor sizes we can actually carry on our boat.

And even if the odds are greatly in its favor in terms of setting--- which I believe they are--- that still leaves the very low holding power of the Bruce/Claw type anchors. And that's been well documented in test after test after test for years. If an anchor doesn't set the first time you can pick it up and try again, but if the basic design makes it a poor holder in the sizes our boat can accomodate, it's a totally worthless anchor in our book.

We never experienced setting problems with our Bruce. We experienced poor holding--- exactly as all the tests show---and that's the reason we and a lot of people we knew or have subsequently met ultimately rejected the Bruce. I don't care how fast an anchor sets if its holding power is so low it is comparatively easy to unset.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:36 PM   #95
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It can also land upside down in which position it unfortunately is very stable. See my photos in the Sarca Excel thread.
Want to bet I can make a Rocna stand on its head in a parking lot? Having lowered my Claw onto the dock about 5 times in order to clean out the chain locker, I can attest that it always flops over onto its side. It has never balanced on its head, nor swooned onto its back. Just flopped over on its side so that if you drag on it, the first fluke digs in if there is anything to dig into, then the tip comes into play, then if it is soft ground, the other fluke digs in. I guess that's what it is supposed to do, and as Evans Starzinger noted, in the larger sizes he uses (50 kg), the Manson Ray (Bruce type) dug in 3 times quicker than the Rocna 55 kg, and held better to boot. Go figger.

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Main...hor%20test.pdf
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:50 PM   #96
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Anchor perfomance changes with size and weight. Unfortunately our boat cannot accomodate 100-pound or greater anchors. So we have to use a relatively small anchor. And in that size, the Bruce's performance is very poor, particularly in terms of holding. This isn't me talking, it's countless tests under all sorts of conditions. The Bruce-type is always at or near the bottom of the list in terms of holding. In comparison, again in these small sizes, the Rocna and the other rollbar anchors based on tests, but more importantly, user testimonials from all over the world, set fast and hold hard.

How they compare up in the 100 pound and greater size is totally irrelevant to me because we can't use an anchor that big. So a giant Bruce may well outperform a giant Rocna or Sarca or whatever. Bruces in many-tons sizes obviously do great holding North Sea oil rigs in place, which I've read is what they were originally designed to do.

But while you can scale down an anchor you can't scale down the seabed, and I am pretty much convinced now that below a certain size the Bruce/Claw design simply doesn't hold on to the seabed as well as it does when it's huge and weighs many tons. All the tests bear this out, and the experience of us and people we know bear it out, too.

So based on our experience and all the tests, I don't believe a little Bruce/Claw in the 44, 33 and smaller weights is an anchor even worth considering anymore. Not when there are demonstrably better alternatives in the same sizes on the market.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:59 PM   #97
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Do you all have proper swivels attached to the stem of the anchors?
I have a Plow style stainless. Granted I'm just a little 26' SeaRay crusier, aspiring to retire to a Trawler one day, but my 15LB Delta held us rafted to a 38' Meridian and 2 24' Bayliners one night in Desolation sound when the Meridian's anchor didn't hold. I was very impressed.

by the way I bought my anchor from Marine Part Depot
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:14 PM   #98
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We eliminated the swivel from our anchoring rig many years ago. We don't believe in adding any unnecessary components to an anchor setup and we do not have a problem rotating the anchor to the proper position to be pulled up onto the pulpit.

We initially installed a swivel because so many boats seemed to have them (the same reason we installed a Bruce the day after we got the boat to Bellingham).

Then we read Earl Hinz's book on anchoring, realized I'd installed ours backwards which meant it could have been easily sheared by a side load, and reinstalled it correctly. Then we read some more of his book and talked to people we had met on our dock and in our club with years or decades of anchoring experience up here and realized--- as they had long ago--- that a swivel was of no value to us whatsoever. So we took it out and threw it away. We use an all-chain rode and there is nothing a swivel would bring to the party.

If we had an issue with aligning the anchor with the pulpit or a bow hawse a swivel could very well be a requirement. However if we had to have a swivel there is only one we would use and that is the WASI PowerBall.
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:24 PM   #99
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Good info Marin.
I have a bent anchor roller matching the Plow style anchor and the swivels helps align it coming back aboard. I don't have a windlass YET!, but this swivel will also help for when I do.
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:28 PM   #100
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Make sure it's not installed backwards.
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