Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-15-2012, 06:52 AM   #41
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,512
One observation about big great holding anchors is they can be hard to retrieve.

The simple cure is a trip line.

We use a red floating ball with the line lead from the crown thru the ball eye and connected to a lead sounding weight .

Does fine before anchoring at deciding the actual depth weight , and if armed the bottom composition.

When the anchor is set the trip line / locator ball simply follows the anchor , and the ball because of the lead weight hanging is directly over the anchor.

Even a light 3/8 line will accept a ton of pull , so getting back that dumb chunk of iron that cost more per pound than a 787 is easy if needed..

FF
__________________
Advertisement

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 07:23 AM   #42
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatgm View Post
I have a new "old boat". Itís going to weigh 35 tons loaded. I inherited a 135 pound CQR and a nice piece of 1 1/8Ē 12-strand, along with a big fortress.
I want to add a primary anchor and am looking at
176 lbs Lewmar Horizon Claw for $750.
154 lb Rocna 70 for $2212.48
The price different is hard to understand
I ran this boat using the 135 pound CQR with no anchoring problems so itís hard to spend the extra money on the Rocna.
Any advice?
al
Advice? If it works, don't fix it.

My boat came with a Chinese claw anchor. It was rusty and a little bent, but I used it for four years. Before setting out on a month long cruise with several nights planned on the hook, I replaced it with a similar anchor, but the next larger size. Mostly just for peace of mind, I never had a problem with the old rusty and bent anchor.

Defender had the Lewmar claw anchor I wanted on sale so I took their ad to West Marine and got a price match. I paid sales tax but saved on shipping.
__________________

rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 11:32 AM   #43
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatgm View Post
I have a new "old boat". Itís going to weigh 35 tons loaded. I inherited a 135 pound CQR and a nice piece of 1 1/8Ē 12-strand, along with a big fortress.
I want to add a primary anchor and am looking at
176 lbs Lewmar Horizon Claw for $750.
154 lb Rocna 70 for $2212.48
The price different is hard to understand
I ran this boat using the 135 pound CQR with no anchoring problems so itís hard to spend the extra money on the Rocna.
Any advice?
al
I have the same size Claw on a 65 ton boat, and it has never dragged an inch that I can tell, in wind gusts up to 60 knots. Either the Claw or the Rocna are a bit overkill for your boat, but when it comes to overkill in anchors, that's a good thing. An almost identical design to the Claw (Manson Ray) was tested in Tierra del Fuego against a Rocna and Manson Supreme in the kind of weights you're looking at and the Bruce type came out on top.

I'd get the Claw and spend what you saved on some decent chain.
__________________
Delfin
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handy
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 11:55 AM   #44
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,701
The anchor test is in Practical Sailor mag Nov 08

surface. This was apparent in the first meter of the beach test where the roll- bar anchors hopped among the rocks before the tips managed to penetrate the frozen sand.
The Ray tends to scoop the loose rocks between two of its flukes, pile them up, and then snag a bigger rock. The Rocna and Supreme blade points will skate between the loose rocks, throwing them off to either side, until the anchor can jam on a big rock.
shOrt scOpe
In small, crowded, or deep anchor- ages, sailors occasionally have to anchor with shorter scope than they would prefer. In these situations, Leonard and Starzinger have used as little as 2:1 scope. To simulate this extreme for the evaluation, we held a second pull test, this time on a differ- ent beach with a much-better-holding gravel and mud, using a 2:1 scope, with and without chain, and with a more upward pulling angle. We were
surprised by the results. Given the loose bottom conditions,
we expected all the anchors to dig in easily and quickly. However, in the first pull, with only rope rode and no chain, only the Ray dug in. The Rocna and Supreme skated along the surface. The Rocna did dig a deeper trench than the Supreme, but neither showed any inclination to set.
In the second short-scope pull, we added 6 feet of chain to the rode. The Ray dug in almost immediately, as we had expected, but the Supreme took 6 feet to dig in, and the Rocna continued to drag. We repeated the Rocna pull three times, and it refused to bite each time.
Steve Bambury of Rocna Anchors said these results are not consistent with their experience and the results of other independent tests. He added that these have earned a solid repu- tation among experienced cruisers such as yacht designer and past PS contributor Steve Dashew.
If anchoring with short scope is unavoidable, Rocna recommends, using 3:1 scope to allow the anchor to dig in, then shorten scope as needed once the anchor has properly set.
We can conclude two things from this 2:1 scope test. First, sufficient scope and chain are critical to getting an anchor to set and hold. If you have to set with short scope, it’s best to do so very slowly and gently to give the anchor tip an opportunity to angle down into the bottom. Second, the Ray performs much better in short- scope conditions than either of the two roll-bar anchors, and produced a set that would have been adequate for anything less than gale conditions.

The above was part of it

Here are other interesting comments.

both the Rocna and Manson Supreme have a self-righting roll-bar design (photos 2 and 3). The feature is sometimes mistakenly credited to Rolf Kaczirek, designer of the Bugel anchor, but Peter Bruce, creator of the original Bruce anchor, actually invented it and included it in his 1973 patent. By eliminating the need for extra lead weight in the tip, the roll bar allows for a larger total blade area and for the use of heavier materials in the toe and shank, putting strength where it is needed. Both anchors also have chiseled tips (1 and 4) to easily cut through kelp and seaweed, and for penetrating hard bottoms. The Supreme was the only anchor PS tested with fully slotted shank.
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 12:28 PM   #45
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
One observation about big great holding anchors is they can be hard to retrieve.

The simple cure is a trip line........
Yes and no. The one time I used a trip line I had to estimate the length of the line and allow for the increase in the depth of the water due to tide. And of course, with tide comes current. Too short a line and the float will try to pull the anchor on its own.

By the time I was ready to leave the next morning, the boat had swung around the trip line and the float was on the other side of the boat. My fear was that it had, or would tangle in the running gear so I did my best to clear it and bring it back to the bow with a boat hook.

In the end, nothing bad happenedm but I've been wary of that technique ever since.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 12:36 PM   #46
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatgm View Post
I have a new "old boat". Itís going to weigh 35 tons loaded. I inherited a 135 pound CQR and a nice piece of 1 1/8Ē 12-strand, along with a big fortress.
I want to add a primary anchor and am looking at
176 lbs Lewmar Horizon Claw for $750.
154 lb Rocna 70 for $2212.48
The price different is hard to understand
I ran this boat using the 135 pound CQR with no anchoring problems so itís hard to spend the extra money on the Rocna.
Any advice?
al

The QCR is still one of the most popular anchors used today, and 135 lb is heavy enough for your size boat. Many boats carry both kinds, plough and navy, which the Fortress is. I am a still a believer of having both kinds depending on the bottom, navy, sandy/mud/weed free bottom, plough, hard/rock/stone/weed bottom. The only question is the length and kind of rode?

I have wealked and look at the newer anchors that are said to quick set? All of them have sharp points and edges, so they will dig in easier/quicker. However, I still question is the max holding poower is better. So I ma going to sharpen the points and edges on your present anchors. However, the QCR and the Fortress are already pointed/sharp.

Play with the formula fine tuning an anchor rode http://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/rode/rode.htm has been interesting as by changing the size of the boat, size of the rode, weight of the anchor and the holding power of the bottom calculates the length of the rode required.

Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 09:52 PM   #47
Senior Member
 
Boatgm's Avatar
 
City: Manila
Country: Guam / Manila
Vessel Name: Carabao
Vessel Model: Home built power tri
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 100
Thank you'll for the valued information.
I think I will get that 176 lb Claw and a barrel of chain for the primary and also keep the 135 lb cqr (on the bow roller) with 10 m of chain and the 1 1/8” nylon rode. The fortress lives in a locker with a short chain and a poly rode.
The trip/ retrieving line is standard for us. I do one thing I don’t often see. I braid a piece of poly in the first 10 meters or so of the nylon rode, so from the short chain the rode floats up instead of dragging around the coral heads. A few times during the morning swim I found the rode wrapped around coral. I started putting a float on the rode but this became a hassle particularly if a fast dark getaway was necessary. Braiding the poly in doesn’t affect handing and keeps the rode up for the most part.
Boatgm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 10:13 PM   #48
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,701
One of the biggest advantages of the reel winch is that one can join 3/4" chain w 1/2" chain, cable and various kinds of line in any combination desired. The fishermen mostly use a few feet of super heavy chain then a long length of heavy chain and some or lots of nylon line. Some use three different sizes of chain. They join all these pieces of rode together w shackles and thimble eyes as appropriate w the line. Deployment and retrieval is fast. I post the pics to show how they use very heavy chain first and then lighter. I think 30 to 30% use all chain but over half have line in the 2nd half of their rode.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	STH71066 copy.jpg
Views:	62
Size:	151.2 KB
ID:	14040   Click image for larger version

Name:	STH71063 copy.jpg
Views:	71
Size:	139.4 KB
ID:	14041  
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 10:40 PM   #49
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,668
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Eric, if you have a quick look at the Rode length thread recently started, I concede your favoured concept of mixed rode is probably correct, as well-explained by an excellent treatise on rode length FF put up a link to, but I can't retrieve. It all boils down to the weight of chain being enough and concentrated at the anchor end, so no matter how much pull is exerted, the different catenary characteristics of the different parts of the mixed rode make it almost impossible for the whole rode to be drawn straight and taught, all the way back to the anchor - ie there is always some laying flat.
I do still feel however, that you try to get away with too little chain. My overall impression is that about 100' would be an ideal minimum, such that in shallower waters, when chafing is likely to be more of an issue, one would essentially be using all chain, (preferably with snubber), but as the water got deeper, more rope rode comes out giving more shock resistance without the need for a snubber, but also at less weight cost.
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 10:55 PM   #50
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatgm View Post
I started putting a float on the rode but this became a hassle particularly if a fast dark getaway was necessary. .
Doing a little smuggling with new/old boat?
Good decision,that Rocna sounded pricey, especially as it probably comes from China. I`d have suggested pricing a Sarca but shipping would be huge.
BruceK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 11:28 PM   #51
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,701
Actually Peter I think we talked about the catenary of anchor rodes and Marin (I think) found a study that pointed out that the ideal placement for the weight of an anchor rode is about 20% of the way up the rode from the anchor. Not at the end of the anchor shank as I had thought. With a short length of heavy to very heavy chain attached to the anchor shank the concentration of rode weight should be right about at the 20% mark .... IF my recollection is indeed correct.

I actually think weight in the upper half of the rode may increase the angle of the rode to the anchor shank pulling the anchor shank more up than otherwise would be. So I think weight in the upper part of the rode is disadvantageous.
Most of the fishermen probably haven't been to physics class but I think somehow they understand the physics of their anchor rode.

If it weren't for the expense and the complication of hydraulics I'd go this route for sure.
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 11:44 PM   #52
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Actually Peter I think we talked about the catenary of anchor rodes and Marin (I think) found a study that pointed out that the ideal placement for the weight of an anchor rode is about 20% of the way up the rode from the anchor. .
The instructions for my "Anchor Buddy" are to position it on the rode just above sea floor at low tide, thus reducing upward pull on the anchor. How does that sit with the study, or is it a different concept altogether?
BruceK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 11:54 PM   #53
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,701
Peter writes:

"I do still feel however, that you try to get away with too little chain."

Indeed you do as most all on this forum do and I'm getting away w it very well. Still haven't dragged or pulled an anchor out. I don't think my modified XYZ anchor is going to set on rocky bottoms so in time I'll have to try the XYZ and then resort to my Supreme, Claw or Dreadnought. The latter would probably work best in rocks.

But whenever it blows Peter I do set the anchor alarm. Experimenters must ... no should be cautious.

The main reason I avoid too much chain is to keep my ground tackle light, simple and inexpensive. I now have a system that works very well but I'd rather have one a bit more convenient. Standing on the bow and pulling hard on the drum winch is bad (a bit) for my back. When I get to be 80 I'll probably go all chain ... or do a splice and a combo rode.
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 06:47 AM   #54
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,512
"The one time I used a trip line I had to estimate the length of the line and allow for the increase in the depth of the water due to tide. And of course, with tide comes current. Too short a line and the float will try to pull the anchor on its own."

This is why we thread the trip line from the anchor crown thru the eye in a float and let the end take care of it self with a sounding weight.

A 6 or 8 inch diameter float probably will not bother the set of a 40 to 60 lb anchor very much , if the float line is somehow too short.

A small ball also does not look like a mooring ball, so it unlikely to attract a would be tenant.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 07:24 AM   #55
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,853
Unless you are a liveaboard world cruiser...or regularly cruise in areas of known wild weather (like williwaws in Alaska)...when was the last time you HAD to anchor in anything above 30-40 knots in an exposed anchorage? (thunderstorms don't count...been through hundreds if not thousands and just not the same due to duration)

Having ground tackle and a windlass geared towards surviving a hurricane to me seems pointless unless I'm going to rig my boat for serious long distance/long term cruising...and even then if you don't hang out in a hurricane prone area and areas with lousy hurricane holes...even then it seems ridiculous to me.

Sure there are cruisers here that may encounter storm force winds on a regular basis and need/want that kind of gear on board...but for most of us US continental cruisers....it's overkill (unless you just plain want all that heavy gear).

Otherwise...like Marin has posted many times...what's adequate and easy...lets you sleep at night...is all that is really required for most of us. The talk about bar tight chain is silly bravado (execpt for a few).
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 07:25 AM   #56
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"The one time I used a trip line I had to estimate the length of the line and allow for the increase in the depth of the water due to tide. And of course, with tide comes current. Too short a line and the float will try to pull the anchor on its own."

This is why we thread the trip line from the anchor crown thru the eye in a float and let the end take care of it self with a sounding weight.

A 6 or 8 inch diameter float probably will not bother the set of a 40 to 60 lb anchor very much , if the float line is somehow too short.

A small ball also does not look like a mooring ball, so it unlikely to attract a would be tenant.
About the only way I will do it these days...makes way too much sense.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 12:54 PM   #57
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Eric--- Here's an anchor for you to try. It's the standard anchor used on the dhows I see here in Dubai. These all-teak boats are HUGE compared to our little recreational toys and they carry tons of all manner of cargo all over the Gulf between the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and even around to India. An this is what they all have for an anchor. You should try one out with your short scope-no chain theory.

First shot is the view from my hotel room this afternoon. The body of water is the Dubai Creek, which is not a creek but a dredged out inlet from the Gulf.. The big cargo dhows are the ones in the center of the frame with the predominantly blue trim on their aft cabins and pilothouses. Second shot is the anchor all these boats use. Some carry one, some two. No anchors on the stern.

Click image for larger version

Name:	image-2226809712.jpg
Views:	85
Size:	65.2 KB
ID:	14059


Click image for larger version

Name:	image-1493980291.jpg
Views:	87
Size:	30.5 KB
ID:	14058
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 06:59 PM   #58
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
This is why we thread the trip line from the anchor crown thru the eye in a float and let the end take care of it self with a sounding weight.

A 6 or 8 inch diameter float probably will not bother the set of a 40 to 60 lb anchor very much , if the float line is somehow too short.

A small ball also does not look like a mooring ball, so it unlikely to attract a would be tenant.
Thanks. I'll rig something like that up before the next cruise.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 08:36 PM   #59
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,701
My "short scope no chain theory" is not a theory at all. I practice it regularly and w 100% success. I have never (that I know of) dragged an anchor and I almost never anchor at 5-1 scope. Don't need to as I have enough experience to know it's not necessary. Also I heard a comment a long time ago that most boaters in Puget Sound anchor at 3-1. They may say they anchor at 5 to 7-1 not to sound like a fool or a reckless person. I of course don't really know but there are lots of variables. First of all I doubt that many boaters have an accurate account of how much line/rode they actually have out there and secondly if one says he's anchored at 5-1 is that at low tide ... high tide or in between? Makes a huge difference and nobody ever says anything about that when talking about anchoring and scopes. Most boaters probably only have a vague idea about the specifics of their anchoring activities and want to look and sound knowledgable and responsible so they say they anchor at scopes that would take hugh areas of swinging room. I think that that guy that made that statement years ago was probably more right than wrong. I anchor at 3-1 ... it's no theory and it serves me well.
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 09:38 PM   #60
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,701
Re the Dhows w their Grapnel anchors I think it can be safely said they probably don't have high holding power per pound but in their defense they no doubt seldom have trouble setting those things. A guy could get hurt mess'in with them easily enough as well. There's probably a historical reason for them to have evolved into general usage perhaps traceable back to the days of wide spread piracy. People tend to do as other people do around them. Consider my last post about scopes and the fact that most AK fishermen use the Forfjord anchor. And about certain things people just use what others are using and if it works others follow. In the case of the Dhow's anchor selection it probably is a design that is easily made by anybody and hard to screw up by deviating a bit from the basic design. It makes us arguing about which one of our high tech anchors is better look pretty stupid when we see what is really required. And if there is half as many as Marin implies in the service he talks about they obviously are working.
__________________

Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012