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Old 11-11-2012, 03:48 PM   #21
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AndyG, if there is one universal truth in this world it is that "size matters". No way around it.
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:32 AM   #22
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Try telling that to a Hobbit.
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:52 AM   #23
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Andy-- my guess is that from all this you've concluded that size, weight, and design all play roles in determining how an anchor performs. There is no real rule of thumb you can depend on to apply across the board.

If bottom penetration is important where you boat then weight and design will probably have more of a role in an anchor's effectiveness than size. Where bottoms are soft or loose, size may well be more important than weight. If all-round performance is your desired result, design may be the most influential factor.

If we anchored consistently in mud and sand and penetration was not a major challenge a large-flunked Danforth or Fortress would probably be our choice (size). If we anchored in grassy bottoms or crusty-surface bottoms a pro-actve penetrating design like a Rocna or Sarca would be our choice (design) . If we routinely anchored in high wind, big wave situations the heaviest anchor we could manage (of any type) would be our choice.

So... no convenient answer.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:13 AM   #24
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My 49' Diesel Duck Sedan widebody - 68.000 lbs displacement- has an Ideal H6 hydraulic windlass, with a 132 lbs Navy Pool anchor on the bow side + a 140 lbs Sarca Excel on the bow roler.
THe Navy anchor is on 300 feet of 3/8" G70 chain and the Sarca Excell has a few feet of chain + rode.

The stern anchor is an 88 lbs Sarca Excel and there wil be a 4th anchor stored somewhere - haven't decided on which type yet - any recommendations?

I think my anchor gear is sufficient for most conditions.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:41 AM   #25
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Now who could argue that and a very relevant post to the OP. But the guy in Craig Ak w the 500# Navy anchor would perhaps think Searios was not really very serious about his ground tackle re "bigger is better".
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:57 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Searios View Post
My 49' Diesel Duck Sedan widebody - 68.000 lbs displacement- has an Ideal H6 hydraulic windlass, with a 132 lbs Navy Pool anchor on the bow side + a 140 lbs Sarca Excel on the bow roler.
THe Navy anchor is on 300 feet of 3/8" G70 chain and the Sarca Excell has a few feet of chain + rode.

The stern anchor is an 88 lbs Sarca Excel and there wil be a 4th anchor stored somewhere - haven't decided on which type yet - any recommendations?

I think my anchor gear is sufficient for most conditions.
Searios, good choices - I'd say you are ready for anything. I wouldn't bother about a 4th anchor - really....
You already give meaning the old 'belt and braces' saying...only you've got an extra set of braces already...
As a matter of potential interest to others on here, (in the Northern Hemishere), who as yet still appear unable to get Sarcas, where did you get your Excels from...?
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:13 AM   #27
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There is no dealer in Hong Kong so they were imported through a local company, which arranged the purchase, delivery and customs.

PM me if you want the company details.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:19 AM   #28
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There you go guys, if you want one, message Searios. His contact/importer might be able to help.
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:31 PM   #29
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However, what I would like to know,in plain English, is size the major consideration in anchoring safely.

I have a 44lb CQR, am I better of with say a 60lb CQR or whatever, Or is it with my boat the 60lb CQR will offer no more holding power than my current 44lb model
Given the same brand and style of anchor, on the same boat, on the same bottom and with the same rode and scope, the heavier anchor will provide more holding power.

You may not need more holding power or your rode may part, but the heavier anchor will provide more holding power.

As for "the major consideration in anchoring safely", technique is up there with size. If you just drop the anchor off the bow, cut the engine, and go below to fix a drink, size isn't going to be that much help. Learn how to set an anchor correctly and you'll be ahead of the game.
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:38 AM   #30
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No question about Ron's 'heavier is best', but I also believe there is an effective weight point for each style anchor. Did you ever try to get a bite on the bottom with a 15lb Navy anchor? It just doesn't happen - but they must work at higher weights or you wouldn't see them on huge boats. And I'll bet that same boat with a Navy anchor would twist up a Danforth style with it's pointy flukes in a heartbeat. So while your 90# claw might hold you in all conditions, a 20# claw might be useless in all but ideal conditions -- just because your 200# whatever does a great job for you, doesn't mean that the same style anchor will be worth spit at a lighter weight.

And while we're at it, in challenging conditions, isn't it possible for chain to 'float' on some surfaces and inhibit anchor penetration? Seems to me that cable/wire would be the ideal rode for penetration, so I omit the chain and just use all 3 strand for convenience, elasticity and effectiveness.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:42 AM   #31
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big is better

Hi All.
Rex from Anchor Right Australia.
Doesnít matter whether the anchor you are deploying is a Noahís Ark job or the latest fandangle new design bigger will always be better, heavier anchors with blunt bulky toes will always work better than the smaller ones of the same brand with the same blunt toes.

Sharpen them and you will find an instant improvement on those anchors to set and penetrate. Bigger means more weight concentrated on the business end of your anchor, for instance, if you stand, present the normal weight of a garden spade to your lawn it will not penetrate, what happens when you stand on it.

So yes in areas that are hard to penetrate a heavier bigger anchor will have a better chance to set.

A much lighter modern anchor design will in most cases outperform many of the older designs simply because they penetrate so much better in a wider variety of substrates, this has been the WOW hype factor on new anchor technology, beware, this wow factor doesnít mean to say all new designs will produce more holding power, any anchor design once buried is where all your holding power comes from, a well buried CQR is hard to beat and will normally be sufficient as long as you have the right size for the boat.

If you are anchoring overnight on slab rock you will have no trustworthy holding power regardless of anchor size and design. Heavier in this situation will simply mean you will fight resistance longer before you drag.

(Change of tide and the ability to reset in a shorter distance)

These are two of the largest improvements in modern anchor technology in many designs, the next line may upset some but it is not with malice but how it is, concave design with a hoop, donít get to settled with this design in change of tide or wind shift ,although the elements can break any anchor design out, as Delfin said, mud and weed will build up and compress between the hoop and the fluke, this can give this design a shallow set, whilst this may or may not be a problem, it can ,does, make it very difficult for the anchor to reset should it break out, this was our very first patented design, we never produced it and redesigned to convex so we do have the knowledge.

Do your own research, the best facts to back this up are you, and a few years on the market with forums like these uncover the facts with a design. Believe me those facts are out there and from what Iíve seen you guys are onto it.

There have been many questions in relation to, if I go up a size will my winch handle it, in most cases yes but again depending on design you may be pulling up a load of mud, this mud may weigh four times more than the anchor. If you choose a concave design it is important you take this into account, this anchor has surfaced; imagine the volume when first broken out.

Sorry guys Icannot seem to load this picture.


Holding power
I am not talking how much Rhode, scope, snubbers these can all be an advantage, I am talking an anchors design, ( width versus depth) if an anchor design such as CQR or similar will penetrate 2 inches deeper than another design that relies on volume, then the broader anchor that sets shallower will to be at least four inches broader than a CQR or similar design to produce the same holding power.

So if you go for a broader anchor design check out the penetration depth ability, donít be sold on the slogan (the widest fluke area of any anchor for improved holding) if it proves to bury deep you have the best of both worlds, depth can be more advantageous than width in most situations.eg weed, or weed and mud.

Of course how much scope, type of scope you put out will improve or reduce the holding power of all anchor designs, if you are ever caught in a situation that you would rather not be in then do not defy the actual physics, three to one for light anchoring, five to seven to one for overnight, everything youíve got if needs be, the more you let out depending on design the deeper your anchor will go, the more rope or chain will also reduce impact and less chance of dislodgment, if you donít agree then research what I say or somewhere down that track you will pay the price.

So what to look for in new anchor technology, a design that will penetrate deep in many types of ocean floor terrain, make sure the anchor is certified or at least meets simple standards, ask to see these test certs, are they legitimate, what type of steels are they made of, forget about glossy magazine tests, research designs, the company producing them and what your forums say.

Worth researching, design is a good place to start, look for a fluke design that has an excellent entry point followed by a fluke that doesnít plough but allows movement of substrate whilst compressing, this encourages the anchor to dive, how does it respond in a wind shift or change of tide, a deep throat opening will always be an advantage in weed, other factors that are of importance to many, will it fit my arrangement and oddly how good it looks. It is not possible to have the perfect anchor, it will never exist, they are all a compromise, still heavier is better.

Best comment from rwidman
As for "the major consideration in anchoring safely", technique is up there with size. If you just drop the anchor off the bow, cut the engine, and go below to fix a drink, size isn't going to be that much help. Learn how to set an anchor correctly and you'll be ahead of the game.
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The only thing I would add to that is if you cannot set your anchor after trying several areas then get rid of it and buy one that will.

Now I know many of you have many specialized professions from building air craft to saving lives but each to his own profession, I ainít no Guru either but I have been designing testing anchors for the commercial pleasure boat and trailer boat industry now for the last twenty years so have some knowledge.
Some may appreciate my comments and obviously I will give some a heache,Just had to throw in my two bobs worth.

Regards to all, CEO of Anchor Right Australia.
Rex.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:26 AM   #32
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Rex, that's fine, but the original post assumes the same style of anchor, it's not asking if style "X" is better than style "Y".

I do have a related question though. You state "Sharpen them and you will find an instant improvement on those anchors to set and penetrate." If that is the case, why don't manufacturers sharpen their anchors during the manufacturing process?
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:56 AM   #33
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Actually, he did answer that Ron. Rex said several times, irrespective of anchor type heavier is usually better, eg "It is not possible to have the perfect anchor, it will never exist, they are all a compromise, still heavier is better."
As to the tip sharpness..again, same answer..the newer generation anchors like Sarca, Rocna and Manson Supreme do have quite sharp tips, as do the old CQR & Danforth types that preceeded them. But weight plus sharpness work even better.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:19 AM   #34
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If anyone is interested in SIZE!

I have an 80KG real UK Bruce for half price.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:05 AM   #35
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bigger is better

Yes Ron you are correct the question was not necessary about style x is better than style Y.

I have to confess I am not good at sticking to a specific question, I should not read three or four threads with questions that around about way do relate, I then tend to summarise them in my own way without consideration to the original question, I do apologize for this but my passion for what I do I make no apology.

Ron wrote;

I do have a related question though. You state "Sharpen them and you will find an instant improvement on those anchors to set and penetrate." If that is the case, why don't manufacturers sharpen their anchors during the manufacturing process?

A good question and maybe that is where I should have started, most of our ship anchors are cast, pool anchors, navy anchors are just a couple that comes to mind, these anchors suspend just about all of their weight at the head-crown of the design, when these style anchors are deployed the two heavy flukes bite and then the crown weight drives directly through those flukes.


Because these are cast steel anchors, a very low resistance thin fluke toe will not do, it would be prone to snapping of on impact, to compromise when these anchors are new the pointy ends are proportioned within practical reason to give strenght, consideration to resistance and long service, Tip resistance is governed by these factors.


However they do get redressed -ground to improve penetration in ship rights yards as they become very blunt –worn down, how many times this can be done is simply governed by a surveyors hand book on the original specs of these anchors, throat opening is also measured, once it is worn over a specified measurement the anchor can be condemned.


I think the Chinese made Rocna is cast, but because it doesn’t suspend all of its weight through the toe the design gets a grind to the point where one could call it sharp without suffering the ware of Dreadnaughts, Navy, pool style anchors are subjected to.


Problem being most of us only see worn out ship anchors similar to the Navy ones that Eric posted, if you look closely you will find the flukes indeed are very blunt and worn, sure you could sharpen these anchors up for low resistance easy penetration for private use, improve their performance over a new one, I assure you, this will, but they will never be subjected to the rigorous dragging the commercial ships would put them through.


To answer the last part of your question, manufacturers do sharpen their anchors, take a look at the following, Fortress, Supreme, Super Sarca, Excel, Boss, Mantus the list goes on but these designs allow it as these toes are fabricated not cast, rather than snap of the toe, at the worst you could maybe bend it, but then again a heavy engineers hammer may straiten it without any repercussions that you would experience if you snapped of the toe.


To give a couple of examples on other cast toe designs, CQR struggle in firm or hard clay to penetrate, so does Delta ,well documented ,not theory, try sharpening these cast toes and they will snap of easily on impact, but in the meantime after the sharpen they will perform like they are on steroids as to their original performance, penetration that is.


Again I say, do the research it is there.


CEO of Anchor Right Australia.


Regards Rex.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:48 AM   #36
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Good Day Rex,
Hope you're still around.
I have a question regarding the original poster's size question.
You talked of big ships and Navy type anchors.
It's been my observation that larger yachts and to my eyes ships have very small anchors compared to their bulk and apparent displacement. Their anchors look to be much too small. Many on this forum are obviously buying into the "bigger is better" so to feel good and safe they get bigger anchors. They want to see that they have an anchor that's bigger than most all they see and given a high number of such blokes perhaps the yachtsman's anchor is too big and the bigger vessels and ships are sized properly. Since ships almost always use a Navy or Dreadnought type they could have an industry standard of so many pounds of anchor for so many tons of vessel.

Does such a standard exist and are ship anchors small per ton of vessel compared to small boats like ours?
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:21 AM   #37
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bigger is better

Hi Eric,

Mate Like I said I am no guru, in the field of big ships their anchors are controlled by many variables but are still governed by classification societies such as the USL Code, DNV, Lloyd’s and the like, the best person to answer your question would be a survey officer, he could give it to you in an instant, but make no mistake, pool anchors, Navy and the like can weight five, six, 15 ton and still look extremely small when hanging from a large ship.

It would be easy to make the wrong evaluation comparing their anchor visual size to Yachts, motor boats and even trawlers, really need to check their weight.
But there is something you are missing, the anchors on these ships rarely hold them unless they are in protected waters, that is really all they are meant to do, if their anchors drag whilst waiting to dock they get assistance from tug boats.

Another equation is these vessels have so much weight and have a draft that you could build a house under, wind has very little influence on them when in protected waters, Something to remember, a ship under steam in the open sea has to travel at a safe distance, so many nautical miles of coast line and further depending on high seas and wind, dropping their anchors will never hold them if they are blown of course, this is why so many of them if they don’t follow the rules will end up going a ground.

CEO of Anchor Right Australia.

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Old 11-14-2012, 12:09 PM   #38
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Thanks Rex.

I'm gett'in a smaller anchor now. What did you say was the phone # for doze tugs?
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:54 PM   #39
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I have a new "old boat". It’s going to weigh 35 tons loaded. I inherited a 135 pound CQR and a nice piece of 1 1/8” 12-strand, along with a big fortress.
I want to add a primary anchor and am looking at
176 lbs Lewmar Horizon Claw for $750.
154 lb Rocna 70 for $2212.48
The price different is hard to understand
I ran this boat using the 135 pound CQR with no anchoring problems so it’s hard to spend the extra money on the Rocna.
Any advice?
al
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:37 PM   #40
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99% of the fishermen in Alaska would get the Claw.

Now if it drags you can tell your lawyer about THEM .. not me.

It's very unlikely it will drag though.
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