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Old 08-05-2015, 09:49 AM   #21
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But Art,
Wev'e got our favorites too.
Not room on board for all of mine.
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:56 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"You're buying holding power. And high holding power in the widest range of circumstances."

So the add sez,

I believe you are purchasing advertising hype and very very select "anchor tests".

There is NO majic in a new and improved lump of steel.

I much prefer to carry a number of good sized proven anchors , with line , ready to deploy than a highly hyped watch fob.

YRMV.
That got me wondering about who bestows the "high holding power" or "super high holding power" designations upon new anchors.

From wikipedia:

"Lloyd's Register provides quality assurance and certification for ships, offshore structures, and shore-based installations such as power stations and railway infrastructure. However, Lloyd's Register is known best for the classification and certification of ships, and inspects and approves important components and accessories, including life-saving appliances, marine pollution prevention, fire protection, navigation,radio communication equipment, deck gear, cables, ropes, and anchors."

...and what degree of performance (across various bottom types) must be met to attain the SHHP designation;

"HHP: The anchor must hold at least twice that of a standard stockless anchor of the same mass.

SHHP: Four times that of a standard stockless anchor, or twice that of a previously approved HHP anchor."


(The above from) Anchor Certification, HHP & SHHP Classification, Type Approval: Lloyd’s, RINA, et al

So...it appears those anchors with SHHP accreditation from Lloyds Register can hold their heads high, and those making big claims without having the balls to give Lloyds their anchor for testing are the shysters FF speaks of.
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:57 AM   #23
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But Art,
Wev'e got our favorites too.
Not room on board for all of mine.
Verrrry true!

Bottom line, as said in a J Lennon song: "What ever gets you thru the night"

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Old 08-05-2015, 10:06 AM   #24
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I still think there are plenty of cruisers that think along these lines...the anchor they hang on the front better grab.... and grab quick in case of an emergency


There are anchors with great holding power reputations but lousy setting records and vice versa.


Emergencies happen when you don't expect them.... weather usually gives you enough time to either break out a special purpose anchor or seek a more protected anchorage.....well at least in my case.


For that reason I hang the anchor that I will use in low to moderate anchoring conditions 90 percent of the time...and has a great quick set rep without care and maybe even short scope...


And I carry a couple other types for unusual or severe conditions...but they are stowed for when needed...not on the bow.
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:09 AM   #25
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So Murray,
Is there a list of what anchors are HHP and SHHP?

So if one has a SHHP anchor he only needs a 20lb anchor where an 80lb "standard" anchor would normally be specified. Most on this forum replace "standard" anchors w a bigger HHP or SHHP anchor. Ever heard of anyone on this forum ditching their standard anchor and getting a smaller HHP anchor?

And as to that what is a standard anchor, Navy .. Danforth .. Claw?

So I've been using 15 lb anchors and all this time only needed 10?
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:11 AM   #26
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That got me wondering about who bestows the "high holding power" or "super high holding power" designations upon new anchors.

From wikipedia:

"Lloyd's Register provides quality assurance and certification for ships, offshore structures, and shore-based installations such as power stations and railway infrastructure. However, Lloyd's Register is known best for the classification and certification of ships, and inspects and approves important components and accessories, including life-saving appliances, marine pollution prevention, fire protection, navigation,radio communication equipment, deck gear, cables, ropes, and anchors."

...and what degree of performance (across various bottom types) must be met to attain the SHHP designation;

"HHP: The anchor must hold at least twice that of a standard stockless anchor of the same mass.

SHHP: Four times that of a standard stockless anchor, or twice that of a previously approved HHP anchor."

(The above from) Anchor Certification, HHP & SHHP Classification, Type Approval: Lloyd’s, RINA, et al

So...it appears those anchors with SHHP accreditation from Lloyds Register can hold their heads high, and those making big claims without having the balls to give Lloyds their anchor for testing are the shysters FF speaks of.
Shysters can be a disturbing crux... for many portions/items/things in life!

However, all who are called same by groups with high-flouting names may not actually be as such.

Therefore; IMHO - No matter Lloyds Register or otherwise... the proof is in the putting regarding "personal" experiences in anchors and the myriad processes/procedures/items contained in the ART of Anchoring.
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:17 AM   #27
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Anchor Size for 40' Trawler

Click on the below link and then email Rex. He'll sort you out with whatever you need to know.

http://anchorright.com.au/


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Old 08-05-2015, 10:27 AM   #28
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Quote:
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So Murray,
Is there a list of what anchors are HHP and SHHP?
Google is your friend

Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
So if one has a SHHP anchor he only needs a 20lb anchor where an 80lb "standard" anchor would normally be specified.
Nowhere in the references listed did they say that a SHHP anchor of 1/4 the mass would hold equal weight...just that an anchor of equal mass should hold 4 times the weight. Me-thinks there's a big difference there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
And as to that what is a standard anchor, Navy .. Danforth .. Claw?
The example in the wikipedia article was a Navy stockless anchor.
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:58 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayM View Post
"HHP: The anchor must hold at least twice that of a standard stockless anchor of the same mass.[/I]

SHHP: Four times that of a standard stockless anchor, or twice that of a previously approved HHP anchor."

(The above from) Anchor Certification, HHP & SHHP Classification, Type Approval: Lloyd’s, RINA, et al

So...it appears those anchors with SHHP accreditation from Lloyds Register can hold their heads high, and those making big claims without having the balls to give Lloyds their anchor for testing are the shysters FF speaks of.

I note that link is from Rocna.

Anyone know if there is an accredited list somewhere (or link) of Lloyd's-designated HHP and SHHP anchors? All I've found is one-off mentions, mostly be individual makers...


Edit: nearest I've come on a Lloyd's site is at https://www.cdlive.lr.org/informatio...Open=Approvals -- but the link to Approved Anchors doesn't go anywhere.

-Chris
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Old 08-05-2015, 11:04 AM   #30
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Nowhere in the references listed did they say that a SHHP anchor of 1/4 the mass would hold equal weight...just that an anchor of equal mass should hold 4 times the weight. Me-thinks there's a big difference there.

Somehow that definition -- with focus on mass instead of size -- would seem to need some kind of exception for Fortress anchors...

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Old 08-05-2015, 11:15 AM   #31
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Mass is the standard of size classification for anchors.

Apples to apples should be steel to steel or aluminum to aluminum.

Too many variables to put all the funny shaped pegs into even funnier shaped holes.

The aluminum Spade has not done well whereas Fortress has always out performed the Dans.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:48 PM   #32
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One item I see in video beach-side anchor tests is the anchor rode (usually chain) being pulled from shallow water onto wet beach "sand" with the rode almost at parallel with sand and within a couple to a few inches off the beach sand. IMHO - that is optimum setting conditions and not at all representative of real actions while setting an anchor in water depth, off a boat, with scope of any percentage (often it is 5, 6, or 7 to one... re rode to bottom to bow).
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Old 08-05-2015, 01:24 PM   #33
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Very good point, Art. Beach tests should require the anchor to be pulled from an elevated towing point like a tower on a flatbed.
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Old 08-06-2015, 11:07 PM   #34
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I think if I were you I would look at what the working load of my windlass was, estimate the length and size of the chain you wanted on your rode, and then find the largest anchor that would fit on the bow within the working limits of the windlass. Bigger is better as long as the windlass will pull it in and the bow roller will fit it. Too many opinions on anchor type, all based on the experience and opinions of the users.

Danforth types work best in soft bottoms, other types work better in other bottoms. Unless you want to carry more than one type of anchor you need to compromise in your anchor selection for varying bottom types. Pick your own compromise.
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Old 08-07-2015, 12:32 AM   #35
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Very good point, Art. Beach tests should require the anchor to be pulled from an elevated towing point like a tower on a flatbed.
Marin,
Beach tests are interesting but not even done in the environment the anchor works in. It's almost like seeing how a fish swims along the beach. And of course the angle of the rode as Art points out is not representative of anchoring 95+ % of the time.
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Old 08-07-2015, 01:36 AM   #36
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Marin,
Beach tests are interesting but not even done in the environment the anchor works in.
I agree. The only real value I get out of beach tests is that they can demonstrate how the anchor works, how it enters the bottom. This was particularly interesting when we started researching other anchors to find one to replace the Bruce we put on the boat when we bought it. At the time we hadn't even heard of rollbar anchors so the beach demos gave a clear picture of how the design works.

Subsequent research turned up videos that showed that the setting action of the rollbar anchor is the same underwater as on the beach, but the beach video was a good basic demo of the principle behind the design.

Outside of that, I think you're right. The beach tests are not something to base a purchase decision on. Neither are anchor tests, in my opinion, although they at least provide a single data point from under the water as opposed to out of it.
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Old 08-07-2015, 01:57 AM   #37
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I'm late on this thread because I've been up in the Gulf Islands using my 55# Rocna. We bought the 55# (25 kg) because at the time that was the recommended size for our 40' sedan cruiser. if I were to do it again I would go with the 66#. I've had the anchor break out twice -- once in pretty poor bottom and once in what should have been ideal. On the other hand, we just had a night of sustained 25 mph winds with peak gusts of 32 and did fine, the bottom was good thick mud.
I'd probably buy a 44# Rocna or claw and 300' of 5/16, put that on the sailboat, and keep the Manson for the new trawler.
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Old 08-07-2015, 02:03 AM   #38
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Old 08-07-2015, 08:19 AM   #39
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I agree. The only real value I get out of beach tests is that they can demonstrate how the anchor works, how it enters the bottom. This was particularly interesting when we started researching other anchors to find one to replace the Bruce we put on the boat when we bought it. At the time we hadn't even heard of rollbar anchors so the beach demos gave a clear picture of how the design works.

Subsequent research turned up videos that showed that the setting action of the rollbar anchor is the same underwater as on the beach, but the beach video was a good basic demo of the principle behind the design.

Outside of that, I think you're right. The beach tests are not something to base a purchase decision on. Neither are anchor tests, in my opinion, although they at least provide a single data point from under the water as opposed to out of it.
We all "test" our anchor's capabilities each time we anchor-out.

Also "tested" is our skill at how to best set an anchor.

At same time we are inadvertently "testing" the bottom conditions of the exact place our anchor meets ground.

And, if that is not enough "testing" by us; then weather conditions currents, high/low tides ... not to mention waves and wakes... place a variable added group of what-if "tests" into the ongoing anchoring quandary of "How To NOT Drag Anchor" - Which after all is the most important part of anchoring success we seek to accomplish.

Of course, dropping anchor, retrieving anchor, and storing anchor are also importing skills we master as our boating years evolve.

Point I'm making: Videos that show controlled anchor "tests" are fun to sometimes watch and the classic physics encountered during those films is just what it is, i.e. classic. However, in the "real" process of each time setting anchor "To NOT Drag" we as boaters each perform our own truly conclusive "tests". Those "tests" of ours are IMO the only anchoring "tests" that really count... for the long run...

Regarding anchor design, weight, types, models, manufacturers, materials and the rode style utilized = "different strokes for different folks"! A boaters choice regarding those several items are wholly additional set of "tests" we all encounter about anchoring.

Happy Anchor-Setting-Test Daze! - Art
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Old 08-07-2015, 11:06 AM   #40
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I think if I were you I would look at what the working load of my windlass was, estimate the length and size of the chain you wanted on your rode, and then find the largest anchor that would fit on the bow within the working limits of the windlass. Bigger is better as long as the windlass will pull it in and the bow roller will fit it.
I like "bigger is better" too, when it comes to anchors, but before getting too carried away, evaluate your ability to weigh anchor for when the windlass doesn't function for whatever reason. I'll tell you, I tested this in the slip on a nice calm day after letting the 88lb Delta soak deep into the ooze for a few hours. Only about 20-25 feet of chain out. Doable, but not fun. Makes you wish you could wave a wand and transform it into a Fortress on a whim.
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