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Old 02-10-2016, 06:50 PM   #161
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I simply buy the next size up from anchor recommended by manufacturer for my size boat.....
I see the rationale to err on the side of safety . But, anchors cost more as they get bigger, so I expect the mfr to to recommend the largest anchor size they can for size of boat. Perhaps an anchor mfr can comment.
Then again, boats vary. Selecting an anchor purely by boat length is not reliable. Displacement, and design and build (light or heavy) need to be factored in.
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Old 02-10-2016, 06:57 PM   #162
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this site is funny...blame the captain of a cruise ship for not getting the right forecast at sea...but buy bigger anchors because you never can guess what weather might come up in some anchorage.....


yep....
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Old 02-10-2016, 07:34 PM   #163
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I've never had a problem using small anchors but I don't have a problem w the bigger is better philosophy either. I'd not want to argue that that's not fact.

One could also say if you've never dragged that your anchors are too big.

Everybody says go one size up. A very conservative group.

If an anchor manufacturer says use size #5 and you jump one size up and the manufacturers are recommending one size up to increase the bottom line your two sizes up and on TF you read that w your anchor (low holding power) you need another size up .......... One could have a 50lb anchor where 12 - 18lb is the proper size. Add that to the fact that manufacturers recommendations vary a lot one to another.

Given enough experience around boats and observing others one could get a good idea of what the average boater has on his boat. But w most on the bigger is better bandwagon who knows if that would be the right size/weight?
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Old 02-10-2016, 08:18 PM   #164
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I equate a "bigger" anchor as a piece of safety equipment that we may never need. Like a seat belt in a car. Just because someone was lucky enough to never be in an accident, does not mean that his lifetime of seat belt use was foolish.

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Old 02-10-2016, 08:25 PM   #165
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Sorry, Art, those Danforth types bring up too much muck and keep trying to pinch my fingers, leastwise for me.
Mark - Muck on anchor blades - deep, holding set into mud bottom.

Pinched fingers = be more careful!
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Old 02-10-2016, 08:32 PM   #166
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I equate a "bigger" anchor as a piece of safety equipment that we may never need. Like a seat belt in a car. Just because someone was lucky enough to never be in an accident, does not mean that his lifetime of seat belt use was foolish.

Steve
Great analogy! - Thanks!!

Fortress anchors' light weight makes going up one size absolutely no problem.
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Old 02-11-2016, 07:53 AM   #167
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I see the rationale to err on the side of safety . But, anchors cost more as they get bigger, so I expect the mfr to to recommend the largest anchor size they can for size of boat. Perhaps an anchor mfr can comment.
Then again, boats vary. Selecting an anchor purely by boat length is not reliable. Displacement, and design and build (light or heavy) need to be factored in.
Two years ago I bought a 40 kg Rocna, the size recommended by the manufacturer for my boat. It cost €1200. The next size up was the 55 kg which would have cost €1900, or €700 more!

This is what Rocna says:
"Rocna is very conservative in their ratings, basing them on 50 knots of wind and real world wave conditions."

I guess depending on where one cruises, 50 knots may not be far fetched.
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Old 02-11-2016, 02:47 PM   #168
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Two years ago I bought a 40 kg Rocna, the size recommended by the manufacturer for my boat. It cost €1200. The next size up was the 55 kg which would have cost €1900, or €700 more!

This is what Rocna says:
"Rocna is very conservative in their ratings, basing them on 50 knots of wind and real world wave conditions."

I guess depending on where one cruises, 50 knots may not be far fetched.
Long ago (early and mid 60's) - in regions of New England: We spent two times at anchor in harbors when hurricane winds reached past 90 mph with gusts of even more - inside the harbors. Both times dad had us nosed close as possible to lee of land with oversized Danforth anchors well set with plenty of scope. Both times he had engine running and pushing into wind to help anchors stay set. Neither time did the anchor drag. I can recall those nights like it was yesterday. I remember other boats pushed against the shore to our rear when day break came.

From those experiences, and by using common sense, especially now that Fortress has the Danforth anchor design on steroids as well as having their material so light weight... I can see NO reason why anyone will not use an oversized anchor. Because... smaller anchor may work fine 99% of the time... but, it's that 1% when calamity could occur if anchor lets loose that really counts... IMO, from experience!


Post 164 - Steve the anchor test guru said it perfectly easy to understand! I recommend reading that post again.
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Old 02-12-2016, 12:29 AM   #169
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I can see NO reason why anyone will not use an oversized anchor. Because... smaller anchor may work fine 99% of the time... but, it's that 1% when calamity could occur if anchor lets loose that really counts...
I would recommend that you reword your statement to read "I can see NO reason why I, Mr. Art, would not use an oversized anchor."

There are infinite reasons not to use too heavy an anchor. The rating of the power windlass. Many boats have manual windlasses. The majority of fair weather and weekend cruisers will never see winds of storm force. Many people, when faced with an approaching hurricane, would rather secure their boats the best they can and then go to a storm shelter on shore - the loss of a boat vs the loss of a life.

So Mr. Art you have very strong personal experience to call upon to draw your personal conclusions, but there are a lot of newbies that read these forums for education and they need to see both sides of the story and not be overly influenced by scare tactics.

As an engineer I can tell you that designing for the 99 percentile is very, very expensive. Designing for the 100 percentile (per your statement) is ridiculous. Cruising a boat to remote locales is inherently risky and perhaps if some degree of risk is not acceptable then other forms of lifestyle should be sought.

The trend nowadays it seems is for trawlers to put the heaviest anchor they have on the nose of their boats because it provides the best safety factor. However, some of us have had the bad luck of snagging submerged objects and finally losing our anchors. Perhaps the traditional sailor's strategy of using a correctly-sized "working" anchor but keeping a storm anchor down in the bilge is also just as valid as the gung-ho approach.

PS - Your father appears to be an experienced and wise sailor. He did not rely on his anchor only in those extreme conditions but put into play additional tactics, like anchoring behind a headland and powering to reduce loads on the ground tackle. That is the type of excellent story and commenting that should be shared.
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Old 02-12-2016, 01:05 AM   #170
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this site is funny...blame the captain of a cruise ship for not getting the right forecast at sea...but buy bigger anchors because you never can guess what weather might come up in some anchorage.....

Yep....
Psn, there's nowt so strange as folks...you know that...
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Old 02-12-2016, 01:10 AM   #171
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I would recommend that you reword your statement to read "I can see NO reason why I, Mr. Art, would not use an oversized anchor."

There are infinite reasons not to use too heavy an anchor. The rating of the power windlass. Many boats have manual windlasses. The majority of fair weather and weekend cruisers will never see winds of storm force. Many people, when faced with an approaching hurricane, would rather secure their boats the best they can and then go to a storm shelter on shore - the loss of a boat vs the loss of a life.

So Mr. Art you have very strong personal experience to call upon to draw your personal conclusions, but there are a lot of newbies that read these forums for education and they need to see both sides of the story and not be overly influenced by scare tactics.

As an engineer I can tell you that designing for the 99 percentile is very, very expensive. Designing for the 100 percentile (per your statement) is ridiculous. Cruising a boat to remote locales is inherently risky and perhaps if some degree of risk is not acceptable then other forms of lifestyle should be sought.

The trend nowadays it seems is for trawlers to put the heaviest anchor they have on the nose of their boats because it provides the best safety factor. However, some of us have had the bad luck of snagging submerged objects and finally losing our anchors. Perhaps the traditional sailor's strategy of using a correctly-sized "working" anchor but keeping a storm anchor down in the bilge is also just as valid as the gung-ho approach.

PS - Your father appears to be an experienced and wise sailor. He did not rely on his anchor only in those extreme conditions but put into play additional tactics, like anchoring behind a headland and powering to reduce loads on the ground tackle. That is the type of excellent story and commenting that should be shared.
Well - Spank My Bottom! We gots us feller here who wants to chastise another feller's way o' thinken bout safety in boating! Yee doggies... I jus luv it when someone feels so correct in their own thinken that they can jump upon their own horse and try ta kick another feller down.

Guess you didn’t read last paragraph in my post # 168 – I’ll quote it here:
“Post 164 - Steve the anchor test guru said it perfectly easy to understand! I recommend reading that post again.”

Also, by your saying “There are infinite reasons not to use too heavy an anchor.” guess you didn’t read this quoted sentence from the middle of second to last paragraph in post 168:
“… Fortress has the Danforth anchor design on steroids as well as having their material so light weight”.

BTW and FYI, regarding an insinuation I feel glaringly present in your “spank em” post! – Please understand, we boated a lot back in the mid-20th Century as a family and had gotten caught unaware in both those storms that produced hurricane force winds. Harbor protection was all we had available each time. 1960’s… was before too awful accurate weather predictions were common place… such as now, in recent times.

I recommend reading posts fully. And, be not so quick to judge lest you may be judged yourself!

Happy Boat-Anchor Daze! - Art
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Old 02-12-2016, 05:11 PM   #172
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Another Anchor Right product arrived in the mail today, a 33 lb. (15 kg.) Super SARCA #5.

Rex (from Anchor Right) wanted me to mention that although this anchor is manufactured with visible differences between the different sizes, the behavior is unchanged from one size to another. The differences in appearance are mostly in the rear of the anchor and have to due with complying to certification standards for load testing.

Note: This anchor is one size smaller than what is recommended by Anchor Right for this boat. However, given that my boat is incapable of dragging (with the engine) the better, larger sized anchors, this size may provide some better information. Also, the cost of submitting an anchor from halfway around the world was mitigated by sending a smaller one.



Once again, the small hull guard (that was designed for a 45 Manson Supreme) works for this anchor (as it did with just about every other that I have tested).

Note the down-turned toe.



The chain attach point is via a rock slot. This anchor was shipped to me with a blocking bolt installed in the slot. I think this is a good idea given that some of my testing involves a violent, 180 degree re-set test and having the chain active in the slot will not give an accurate representation of this anchors ability to "pivot" in the seabed.

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Old 02-12-2016, 07:22 PM   #173
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.......Note: This anchor is one size smaller than what is recommended by Anchor Right for this boat. However, given that my boat is incapable of dragging (with the engine) the better, larger sized anchors, this size may provide some better information........
After re-reading the above, I realize that I may have wrote something confusing. My reference to "better, large sized anchors" was not meant to say that the SARCA is not better.

I should have wrote:

......However, given that my boat is incapable of dragging (with the engine) the larger sized anchors (except the inferior Bruce), this size may provide some better information...............

Note: I have not yet tested the SUPER Sarca and I have no idea how it will perform. Stay tuned.....

Steve
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Old 02-12-2016, 08:01 PM   #174
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The slots on the back plate are missing. And the fluke seems different too.

Wait .. I've got to get some popcorn.

Are you going to do the decreasing scope thing again?
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Old 02-12-2016, 08:07 PM   #175
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.......Are you going to do the decreasing scope thing again?
Yes.
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Old 02-12-2016, 08:13 PM   #176
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I like all this video anchor testing it is helpful. But as a trained scientist I know all the anchor testing I have ever read is basically flawed. Even a anchor set 20 feet from another may be in a different substrate with different setting and holding characteristics and I have never seen a study that can produce controls for that. The only way to mitigate against that kind of bias is by large statistically relevant samples and three tries for setting and holding may fall short there. In some ways the experience of many experienced boaters who anchor often in different bottoms may be as good a test as other means. My personal experience over 50+ years of anchoring East and West coast with many different types of anchors has pointed me in the direction of the deep digging spade type anchors which I first purchased about 18 years ago from Tunisia when it was relatively a new idea.. Most of these newer anchors are variations of the original Spade Anchor which started the revolution. The video footage helps us visualize how things actually happen down there and maybe all anchors should have a camera installed won't that be a hoot.
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Old 02-12-2016, 08:30 PM   #177
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eyschulman,

I agree completely with what you said and I certainly would prefer to make a dozen takes (or more) of each test. But I just cannot do that much work - for free.....(holding cardboard sign that says "will test anchors for food").

I will say that my primary test area is about as good as it gets for bottom uniformity. It is very, very flat and the adjacent, eroded bluff that "fed" this area is a uniform "glacial till".

Steve
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Old 02-12-2016, 10:13 PM   #178
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eyschulman,

(holding cardboard sign that says "will test anchors for food").

Steve
That is hilarious. BTW - I believe we all know that you do work really hard on these tests. Thanks!! - Art
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Old 02-12-2016, 11:45 PM   #179
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eyschulman,

I agree completely with what you said and I certainly would prefer to make a dozen takes (or more) of each test. But I just cannot do that much work - for free.....(holding cardboard sign that says "will test anchors for food").

I will say that my primary test area is about as good as it gets for bottom uniformity. It is very, very flat and the adjacent, eroded bluff that "fed" this area is a uniform "glacial till".

Steve
Steve, could I be a real pain, and ask if you would consider running all your usual scope and reverse pull and current reversal type tests both with the rock slot bolted off, and with it in use as well. I think your way of testing could be the very best way (with the video and all) for us to finally lay to rest the debate which has gone on for a long time, as to just how the tripping slot works, and is it a risk to use it, or not.

I use it all the time, and have never dragged except once when a massive rock managed to lodge and balance (God knows how) right in the middle of the fluke, but it was obvious straight away something was wrong. I have had it move slowly one time in very soft mud with a short lunch scope also, but never any other time when it would have mattered, and I always overnight at 5:1.

My feeling is that even with direct current reversal, the shackle normally jams in the slot, and it pivots round just as if the slot was bolted off, but that if by chance the drift brought the shackle so neatly over the slot is was able to slide down to the fluke end, (something you have to do deliberately by carefully taking up all slack, then gently motoring along over the anchor to achieve), that the anchor, although tripped, would just re-set so fast you would never know it had tripped. I am all agog, as will be many on here, as to what actually happens...
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Old 02-13-2016, 12:21 AM   #180
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Peter,
I've thought that since the anchor sets so well that who would ever know if the chain ran down the top of the slot or stayed attached to the end of the shank?
Good point it would be time well spent to know for sure what happens.
I'd also like to see if the SARCA sets on it's side like other roll bar anchors or sets sitting right-side-up. I strongly suspect the latter .. that it quickly rolls over just past it's edge and flops right down on it's butt right-side-up. I don't think it could stay in any attitude but right-side-up for very long w/o unusual circumstances involved.
But at longer scope the chain may hold the shank down and side setting may be the norm.
I'd sure like to see though.
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