Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 07-25-2016, 01:03 AM   #521
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy View Post
............Perhaps the question needs to be asked .. did Fortress design their anchor to do 3+ knot reversals. I do not need to ask this question Does any manufacturer. I do not need to ask this question Or perhaps the question dos'nt need asking because no anchor manufacturer does. The question does not need asking because the mindset of the inventor is not a factor as long as the anchor works. Maybe the best anchor in the world was just a good guess or the inventor just got lucky. I do not care how the anchor was derived. It either works or it doesn't Perhaps anchors are designed to be the best that they can be and their limits fall where they will. Obviously, an anchor manufacturer strives for the best and will always wish the anchor was better.
Again a test is good if it reveals usable information. I am sorry that you do not find my 180 degree re-set information usable. You are welcome to your opinion. We will have to agree to disagree. But the scenario you've created .. anchor, boat size, anchor size, bottom and setting dynamics is not likely to be duplicated. Never, have I or anyone else said that my 180 degree reset test was a likely real world scenario. It is in fact a rather unlikely scenario. But when it does happen, having an anchor that will reliably re-set after being pulled from the sea-bed is desirable - to me at least. So not very usable for specific anchor buying information but when compared to the many other anchors tested (that is exactly what I am doing.) it reveals lots and lots of trends and general anchor behavior. This is not only very revealing but very useful for buying anchors and also greatly adding to one's knowledge of how to deploy anchors. This is confusing. You say the info is "not very usable" then you say the info is "very usable" ??

So very valid useful Steve. But often not ideally matched in the many variables. I suppose there are a few people out in the world that need to be told that there are a vast number of variables in anchoring. Variables that cannot possibly all be re-created in a test environment (I would need to conduct thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of tests). I guess I should not assume that everyone would be so astute.
Re the validity of the Danforth type there is only one anchor I always have on my boat .. a 13lb Danforth anchor.
Eric, I like you. You have a very inquisitive mind. You are not afraid to think outside the box. You are confident enough to modify your own anchors. You have some very good ideas. This is all very very cool and I commend you for all that you have added to these (numerous) anchor discussions.

Steve
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2016, 02:57 PM   #522
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,063
I'm totally disarmed of course.
Thought you were fed up w me critisizing your methods and thinking so I did'nt look here for a day or so.
Many thanks for the compliments but more importantly the "I like you". Very few on this forum are open enough to say that and I don't think I've heard it before here.

But now how can I critisize you. I'd say nice move Steve but that may sound combative. I'll PM you when I get home .. at Starbucks.

Here goes again ...
I haven't thought much about the tether to the camera and float but giving it some thought re this very light anchor I do think the tether is getting into the act. Dragging the camera and float along at 3 knots would create quite a pull on the tether. Add the lift of the float and the very light flukes and I think ... there's a problem. Had'nt considered the drag of the float and camera before.
__________________

__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2016, 07:10 PM   #523
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,063
Steve,
I reread and see this;
" So not very usable for specific anchor buying information but when compared to the many other anchors tested (that is exactly what I am doing.) it reveals lots and lots of trends and general anchor behavior. This is not only very revealing but very useful for buying anchors and also greatly adding to one's knowledge of how to deploy anchors. This is confusing. You say the info is "not very usable" then you say the info is "very usable" ??"


I was trying to say some of the testing re a specific anchor may not be good purchasing/buying information as a poor performance in an unusual action/scenario could make a very good anchor look not so good for average situations. But everything learned over time w many different anchors and time to reflect is very valuable (usable) information. Many here have commented on how much they have learned from your tests (me included) but no anchor test can test for all conceivable situations .. so we take what we can get.

Sorry about the bad scramble of words.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2016, 08:21 PM   #524
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2016, 09:19 PM   #525
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,443
Hole(y) anchor, Batman! Good sleuthing
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2016, 11:03 PM   #526
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayM View Post
Hole(y) anchor, Batman! Good sleuthing
Just buy a Sarca ExCel. Rex has done all the work for you.
__________________
Don on Moonstruck
Sabre 42 Hardtop Express & Blackfin 25 CC
When cruising life is simpler, but on a grander scale (author unknown)
http://moonstruckblog.wordpress.com/
Moonstruck is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 12:10 AM   #527
Guru
 
rochepoint's Avatar
 
City: Sidney BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Rochepoint
Vessel Model: Cheer Men PT38 Sedan
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonstruck View Post
Just buy a Sarca ExCel. Rex has done all the work for you.


__________________
Cheers
Mike Barge
MV Rochepoint
Sidney, British Columbia.
rochepoint is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 12:18 AM   #528
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,443
Hey, I was just acknowledging the mans determined curiosity streak which impels him to keep experimenting until he finds an answer, while the rest of us (if we do ponder such things) usually give it only a passing thought whist scratching our asses.
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 01:03 AM   #529
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,786
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by rochepoint View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayM View Post
Hey, I was just acknowledging the mans determined curiosity streak which impels him to keep experimenting until he finds an answer, while the rest of us (if we do ponder such things) usually give it only a passing thought whist scratching our asses.
Yes, exactly so, and the interesting experiment Steve has just conducted indeed proves that it is the suction effect that holds retained bottom substrate that has been compressed onto the fluke. Net result, it stays put, thus interfering with fluke action in such a way as to cause it to pop out of the bottom. This supports the concept that it is the slots or holes that allow that suction to be broken, allowing the junk to slide off as the anchor rotates, and not therefore impeding the re-set.

However, another interesting thing Steve's experiment just revealed is that the mud remained stuck where there were no holes Personal experience is this does not tend to happen much unless the mud is exceptionally sticky, with the Sarca range, suggesting the concave shape of the Manson and Rocna flukes contributes to that lump of mud staying put, whereas the convex fluke shape of the Sarcas does not. Probably helping to explain why the older plow type anchors are still so popular - as long as you can get them to set.

Well done Steve. You have sacrificed your Manson on the altar of truth, and you found it - the truth that is. No-one else has actually proven so graphically what you just proved as far as I know - other than Rex way back when, that is...and we never saw that.
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 01:28 AM   #530
Moderator Emeritus
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,995
It`s a brave man who modifies an established anchor manufacturers design to see if it can be improved. Though thinking about it, Eric has been doing that for quite a while.
It is surprising that some simple changes, which reflect parts of the Sarca design, would have such an effect on resetting. I wonder where this takes Manson, and if Sarca minds having its ideas borrowed. I guess it`s all in the spirit of safer anchoring and in any event, quite a nice compliment for Sarca.
__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 02:08 AM   #531
Senior Member
 
drb1025's Avatar
 
City: Bellevue, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Vamos a Ver
Vessel Model: DeFever 46
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 383
Unn
drb1025 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 05:12 AM   #532
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,786
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by drb1025 View Post
Unn
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 05:43 AM   #533
Senior Member
 
drb1025's Avatar
 
City: Bellevue, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Vamos a Ver
Vessel Model: DeFever 46
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by drb1025 View Post
Unn
Sorry, that was an inadvertent post. Must have fallen asleep reading TF.
drb1025 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2016, 12:13 PM   #534
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Rex Francis (Anchor Right) called me yesterday after viewing this latest video and we had a nice chat about perforated flukes, and general anchor ramblings. Naturally, he thought my investigations are great as my drilled fluke testing affirms this technology that he himself developed.

He also wanted me to let people know that he holds patents on his anchors that include holes in the fluke. He as no problem with individuals drilling holes in their personal anchors but he (like myself) caution that any drilling will weaken the structure, possibly to the point of becoming unsafe.

Additionally, he wants it do be known that he does not want another manufacturer to take advantage of this concept (holes in fluke) and he feels that his patent coverage is broad and enforceable.

I hope the comradary that I share with Rex does not lead to anyone believing that I give preferential treatment to his anchors. Prior to viewing my initial group of test videos, Rex did not know anything about me. What he saw in my videos (and my boat project) was a person who, in his words, is a "real bloke". His trust in me, coupled with the faith he has in his own products, gave him the confidence to start sending anchors to me from halfway around the world - no strings attached. Two of his anchors have performed perfectly in my tests but for a third anchor, it was not all roses. This was disappointing for Rex but I will say that he accepted the results fully.

I even chose a non-Anchor Right product as my favorite personal anchor (Spade).

Steve
__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2016, 12:12 PM   #535
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,063
Great work Steve.

I had thought for years that the slots in AR anchors lessened the holding power just as if you put holes in the wing of an aircraft.

And I contemplated holes near the leading edge of my rudder as a sort of anti-stalling feature. Never did it mostly because my rudder works so well as it is.

You reshaped the toe of the Supreme sorta like the Rocna. The bevel of the toe tip bevels up and out (from the bottom) on your modified toe as does the Rocna. I've always thought beveling down w the wider surface under and smaller on top would be better.

I agree w you on taking out the heart shaped protrosions approx 1.5" behind the tip point. I cut about 80% of mine off. I wondered if Manson did that to increase the fluke area a bit there to aid setting. And I've seen the heart on other anchors as well.

The clogging of the concave flukes is an obvious thing. And the shape of the packed clog becomes the anchor. Far from concave (the best shape for flukes).
But the jury is still out on what effect the slots/holes have on holding power. The Excel may be good evidence that the slots don't reduce holding power. Haven't seen it go head to head on an anchor test w the Rocna, Supreme ect but will be very interested in the results when it happens.

I only used my Hogback Supreme once on our recent trip. Set at 2.5-1 in 48' of water and backed to 1400rpm. All went perfect including holding in 20+ winds. I need to do some dedicated anchor testing. Now I need to fix my boat.

My idea of building the great penetrating anchor could be flawed seriously by this clog issue. If the clog sticks to the fluke well enough the anchor will no longer be a slim thing that will slice through the bottom easily. But I still think removing the RB was a good move as I'm quite sure the RB is a major player in the clogging issue. It (RB) should greatly reduce the tendency of the bottom material (mud) to slide along the upper surface of the fluke because the RB is pushing down on the material trying to go through the hole (RB hole). So it's possible my removing the RB is reducing the clogging .. just in a different way. My Hogback has come up clean so far.

One anchor manufacturer put little (1/8") "buttons" on the fluke surface to reduce friction. Float planes take off easier w little waves on the water and "stick" to the water when it's glassy smooth. So it's possible the polished SS anchors may not work as well but I'll bet they actually work better .. but don't know.

Another thing is that the slots/holes may be a blessing in mud but a performance loss in sand or any bottom that will slide along the fluke well. But most bottoms in the PNW are mud.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF2092 copy 2.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	201.8 KB
ID:	56667  
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2016, 06:16 PM   #536
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
We had a forecast of 25 knot breezes the other day which made for some fine sailing. Unfortunately, by the time I got around to tossing an anchor over the side, the wind abated somewhat.

I really wanted to get some clear footage of the anchor in actual wind/wave conditions, but it appears this will be impossible as the waves seem to 'stir' up an incredible amount of organic material from the nearby beach.

Steve

__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2016, 10:41 PM   #537
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,063
Organic material?

Perhaps you should have thrown fishing gear over.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2016, 04:44 PM   #538
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Nick Shaw of Ground Tackle Marine, offered to exchange my Super Sarca #5 for a #6. This is the perfect size for Panope.

Rather than another boring test of an anchor performing perfectly, I tried to make it fail by blocking the fluke slots (these slots perform the function preventing mud from sticking).

Alas, the test did not go as I had presumed it would............

Steve

__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2016, 08:59 PM   #539
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,063
Steve I think the convex (rather than concave) shape of the fluke is providing the element of anchor design that allows the anchor to shed sticky bottom material like mud. The concave flukes just pack in the mud pressing it to the fluke. When it sticks to the fluke and becomes a fixed shape and looses it's fluid nature the likeyhood of it breaking out is high but even if it stays burried the shape of the anchor becomes more like big metal pear .. small end fwd. holding power can only go far south.
A big part of the Supermes problem w compaction is the small radius of the fluke. It's made that way as part of the self righting feature the roll bar delivers .. But it is greatly aided by the excessively curved concave fluke. The Rocna is not as deep (convex) so it's problem of compaction is a bit less. But the Super SARCA (SS) seems to have all bases covered. I've often said it's probably the best anchor in the world. But stowage, the agricultural look and having slightly less holding power than some other anchors put a big dent into it's sales numbers. However I think setting and dependability should rank higher than ultimate holding power

Must be a combination of the two features that amplifies compaction. The concave fluke is the dominant feature and clearly the best for holding power. The Supreme packs in mud with the best of them .. my opinion .. but most of the time it's not a problem.

Something interesting about the slots on the Anchor Right of Australia anchors is that long before ARA did that there were Navy anchors w one siglificant slot in the center of each of the two flukes. Could have been the first slotted anchor.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2016, 09:16 PM   #540
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,786
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
Nick Shaw of Ground Tackle Marine, offered to exchange my Super Sarca #5 for a #6. This is the perfect size for Panope.

Rather than another boring test of an anchor performing perfectly, I tried to make it fail by blocking the fluke slots (these slots perform the function preventing mud from sticking).

Alas, the test did not go as I had presumed it would............

Steve

Great footage Steve, and no surprise to me, as a A Sarca no. 6 is exactly what I have been using the last 12 odd years or more. In fact in the Anchor Right ad, they state that 'sticking to a convex shaped fluke, and leaving the mud behind' is the main réason d'etre for the shape, and not being concave.

I think the main function the slots serve is in helping shed the more sticky mud, but more importantly breaking the very strong suction effect which otherwise forms behind the fluke, when one first starts to retrieve it out of the bottom, meaning the mud is not sucked onto the fluke as strongly in the first place, and also less stress on the lifting gear. However, to lessen that even more, I often deliberately drive back over the anchor, with the slack just taken up, and use the tripping mechanism as well to break mine out.

You will, my friend, just love that anchor, and I confidently predict you will never need to use any other, ever again. Period.
__________________

__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012