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Old 07-05-2016, 03:29 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by dhmeissner View Post
Caught Panpope in the act....
Ha, caught red handed!

It sure is nice to just drop an anchor without a bunch of camera stuff, and actually leave it in the water long enough to have a beer.

Happy 4th of July.

Steve
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Old 07-18-2016, 04:58 PM   #502
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I spent a couple nights at one of my favorite coves swinging in light winds to the 44 pound Steel Spade anchor.

In the Salish sea, vegetation can be be heavy when water depth is less than 20 feet and this spot is a prime example. High tide depth was about 16 feet and low tide was about 6 feet.

The anchor set rapidly from a 1 knot backdown and held 3,000 RPM reverse power (sorry, no video footage of the set).

I attached the GoPro camera to a telescoping boat-hook and was able to scan the bottom thoroughly from Panope's foredeck. Unfortunately, we cannot see the anchor until it is raised out of the weeds.

Steve

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Old 07-22-2016, 11:53 AM   #503
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Video #65.
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Old 07-22-2016, 10:03 PM   #504
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Good day to you Steve,
I hope you don't think badly of me for saying so but I think if you slowed down to a walking pace or less that would be representive of a tide or wind change. Those flukes in your vid are very light and literally flying through the water. How would that happen in a regular anchoring situation? Would be a very far fetched scenario indeed. Are you testing the Fortress or your test?

Re the Bruce/Claw I think it's a design problem. Too much throat angle or the outboard flukes interfeering w the center fluke. Perhaps the outboard flukes digging up the substrate loosening it up so the main center of the fluke essentially sees a pocket of marbles or loose sand. I'll bet the Danforth would act like the Bruce in your tests if it was modified to a greater throat angle. Do you have a Claw that could be cut and modified for a lower fluke angle? I have a 22lb Lewmar but not quite ready to cut it up. There is a Claw that is classier looking and sharper than the other Claws I've seen ... a Sea Dog. What's you're theory on the Bruce/Claw breaking out?
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:11 AM   #505
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Good day to you too, Eric.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy View Post
Good day to you Steve,
I hope you don't think badly of me for saying so (no worries) but I think if you slowed down to a walking pace or less that would be representive of a tide or wind change. See video below. Start watching at the 4:40 mark and note that the boat speed varies between 2 knots and 0 knots with the flukes hopelessly fouled with seabed and pointed upward. Those flukes in your vid are very light and literally flying through the water. Agreed, but the same dynamic pressure that was holding the flukes up was also the thing that washed the seabed away. Slower speed might aggravate the situation. How would that happen in a regular anchoring situation? A friend of mine experienced a 180 degree wind shift as a result of frontal passage in the Gulf Islands. Strong winds built immediately and he is quite certain that his boat was traveling faster than my 3.5 knot test speed when the slack was taken out of his rode. Would be a very far fetched scenario indeed. Agreed. Are you testing the Fortress or your test? I do not understand this question.

Re the Bruce/Claw I think it's a design problem. Too much throat angle or the outboard flukes interfeering w the center fluke. Perhaps the outboard flukes digging up the substrate loosening it up so the main center of the fluke essentially sees a pocket of marbles or loose sand. This is my best guess. I'll bet the Danforth would act like the Bruce in your tests if it was modified to a greater throat angle. Do you have a Claw that could be cut and modified for a lower fluke angle? I only have genuine Bruce anchors that I do not wish to modify. I have a 22lb Lewmar but not quite ready to cut it up. There is a Claw that is classier looking and sharper than the other Claws I've seen ... a Sea Dog. What's you're theory on the Bruce/Claw breaking out? Same as your "outboard fluke, digging up a divot" theory.
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Old 07-23-2016, 06:53 AM   #506
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That picture looks very familiar...a hopelessly fouled danforth.

Was in the parking lot the other day spray galvanizing an old danforth that I am selling.

Some guy out of the blue walks up and starts complaining how his never works.

Had to agree with him, lost a sale because I was about to say how mine was a "magic" danforth.
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Old 07-23-2016, 11:46 AM   #507
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Video #66.
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:19 PM   #508
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Emma - Way too cool/cute! Thanks so much!


We are picking up two of our grands in an hour, Harlow Girl 4 yrs. old (born on my B-Day) / Wiley boy 1 yr. old... born on his day!


You gonna have Emma test other anchors. Bests tests yet! - IMHO
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Old 07-23-2016, 04:54 PM   #509
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Steve,
Watched per your instructions " See video below. Start watching at the 4:40 mark and note that the boat speed varies between 2 knots and 0 knots with the flukes hopelessly fouled with seabed and pointed upward" Yes but I think the slot was fouled before you slowed down.

I wrote "
Are you testing the Fortress or your test?" I'm thinking if you were testing the anchor you'd be testing it for something it was designed to do. You would'nt test car starting at -170 degrees f because cars are'nt designed to start when it's that cold. And a test is only as good as what it reveals. You've revealed that the Fortress anchor failed to do what it was'nt designed to do. A firecracker won't blow up a tractor and if you test it for that nothing is learned because everybody knows a firecracker will not blow up a tractor so the test revealed nothing. Your test showed something but that something is so unlikely to happen it's pointless .. almost .. but it did show how some anchors can get fouled and become inoperative and others in the same situation perform well. As evidenced by psneeld's post above most of us know the Danforth type anchor is not bulletproof re fouling. So seeing it happen is more valid that hearing about it so the test indeed has value. But very little ..as the chances of that happening to one of us is extremely low. The chances of a Danforth type anchor holding whereas many other (perhaps most) anchors will break out is perhaps 1000 times as great as the Danforth getting fouled to the point of becoming inoperative. So only one advantage of the design extremely outweighs the fouling in an extreme reversal. And there are many design advantages of the Danforth. Don't know what the numbers are re the chances but one could easily say the Danforth types wer'nt designed to do the reversals you're doing on the sea floor you're using.

It's interesting to see what anchors will do in an extreme scenario but is it information one can use selecting a new anchor? Maybe but only after seriously considering 15 or likely many more other more important elements of anchor design.

Again I'd like to see a normal reversal w this anchor.

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Old 07-23-2016, 07:48 PM   #510
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Eric, you asked to see a reverse test at "walking pace or less". I then showed you a video of the anchor undergoing a reverse test at 2 knots. I looked up "walking speed" and found that for older folks it is 2.8 mph. for younger folks it is 3.4 mph. Now you want something else.

We all know what a Fortress Anchor (or virtually any other anchor) will do when the reverse pull is applied slowly and the "reverse" direction is something other that 180 degrees: it will just about always pivot or shuffle around and stay engaged to the seabed. I know it, you know it, and everybody else who has been watching my videos. knows it.

If you still have to ask why I am testing in a worst case scenario, (a question that I am growing very weary of answering) I am afraid you will never understand my answer.

I am beginning to think that no matter what I do, you will not be satisfied.

Steve
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Old 07-23-2016, 08:19 PM   #511
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A real world reversal will suffice.
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Old 07-23-2016, 08:25 PM   #512
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I am beginning to think that no matter what I do, you will not be satisfied.
Steve
Anchor discussion on TF was ever thus.
Personally,I have gained much information from the SV Panope testing, and appreciate Steve went the extra mile to specifically test theories doubting particular aspects of testing, including using a different, lighter, boat.
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Old 07-23-2016, 08:43 PM   #513
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A real world reversal will suffice.
My first Fortress test from 8 months ago. Reverse course ended up being 150 degrees from the original set. Anchor pivots and stays engaged with the seabed.

I stand by my guess that you will not be satisfied.

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Old 07-23-2016, 08:56 PM   #514
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QUOTE=Panope;463157]Eric, you asked to see a reverse test at "walking pace or less". I then showed you a video of the anchor undergoing a reverse test at 2 knots. I looked up "walking speed" and found that for older folks it is 2.8 mph. for younger folks it is 3.4 mph. Now you want something else.

We all know what a Fortress Anchor (or virtually any other anchor) will do when the reverse pull is applied slowly and the "reverse" direction is something other that 180 degrees: it will just about always pivot or shuffle around and stay engaged to the seabed. I know it, you know it, and everybody else who has been watching my videos. knows it.

If you still have to ask why I am testing in a worst case scenario, (a question that I am growing very weary of answering) I am afraid you will never understand my answer.

I am beginning to think that no matter what I do, you will not be satisfied.

Steve[/QUOTE]

Don't even try...you have done what no one has done before, done it well and owe no one anything.

If they want something else from you, even one word...I would have them contact my PayPal account...
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Old 07-23-2016, 10:09 PM   #515
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Steve,
OK good .. you deliver.
I'm beginning to think the problem is impaction on the flukes when the anchor flips. The substrate impacted on the upper surface of the flukes is suddenly on the bottom when the anchor flips. And w the 3 knot speed the flukes are held up long enough for the speed to snap back and then the lift from the fwd motion keep them up above the bottom preventing the flukes from catching the bottom and resetting. Of course that requires a near perfect 180 degree reversal. Perhaps the impaction factor would be far less at your other test site .. or nonexistant.

Oh well it's fly stuff as it's probably not going to happen to the vast majority of us but you've shown that it does happen.

I made two sets w my mod Supreme sans roll bar and w fence on top of the shank and had two very excellent sets. Held well but I've probably got some barnacles as rpm was down. Getting the prop cleaned Monday.
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Old 07-24-2016, 12:18 AM   #516
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Steve,
OK good .. you deliver.
I'm beginning to think the problem is impaction on the flukes when the anchor flips. Yes, I agree. The substrate impacted on the upper surface of the flukes is suddenly on the bottom when the anchor flips. Yes, I agree. And w the 3 knot speed the flukes are held up long enough for the speed to snap back and then the lift from the fwd motion keep them up above the bottom preventing the flukes from catching the bottom and resetting. Yes, except even when the anchor is allowed to stop, the seabed will sometimes not allow the shank pass between the impacted flukes and therefore will not articulate. Of course that requires a near perfect 180 degree reversal. Yes, I agree. I have been doing dozens and dozens of "re-set" tests and IF the chain "whizzes by" (indicating a near perfect 180 degree reversal) the anchor flips almost every time. This "back flip" occurs no matter which anchor I am testing and it is my belief that boat speed has little to do with it. It is all about that "perfect" 180 degree re-set. Perhaps the impaction factor would be far less at your other test site .. or nonexistant. Here is a test of the Fortress at the "other" site (sand and gravel). Note that at the 3:40 mark, a perfectly sized rock is jammed between the flukes.



Oh well it's fly stuff as it's probably not going to happen to the vast majority of us but you've shown that it does happen. The frequency of this "Perfect Storm" type re-set could be as infrequent as automobile head-on collisions. I don't know about you, but I wear my seat-belt just in case.

I made two sets w my mod Supreme sans roll bar and w fence on top of the shank and had two very excellent sets. Held well but I've probably got some barnacles as rpm was down. I'm glad to hear that your modified anchor gave some positive results. Getting the prop cleaned Monday.
Here is another idea about the "speed" of a re-set. If you re-watch my most recent Fortress video you will see on the first "re-set" during the "instant re-play" at the 1:20 mark, that the chain stops for a moment while the nylon portion of the rode stretches like a rubber band. When the anchor finally releases, the stored energy in the rode causes a much faster movement of the anchor. It is my belief that even if the boat was traveling at .01 knots, there would be times when a nylon rode would cause a released anchor to momentarily travel at some very high speed.



Here is another example of this "rubber band release": It is my Forfjord "deep set" test. Notice that when the anchor releases at the 5:00 minute mark, this (65lb.) anchor INSTANTLY accelerates to a very high speed (6? 8? 10? knots?) even though the boat was moving at less than 0.1 knots. This rode has a significant portion of nylon.


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Old 07-24-2016, 10:22 AM   #517
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Yes that's true but ....

The nylon line acting like a rubber band * is dependant on a good bit of resistance to wind up the rubber band. With an anchor well set even a straight over the top should provide such resistance. After the instant the light Fortress breaks out I'm supprised the Fortress dos'nt fly up 5 or 8' as it rushes in the other direction.

And unless it's a near perfect 180 the flip won't happen. And then of course it's sometimes shank bending time varying tremendously on the brand of Danforth used. The Fortress is no doubt far far less likely to experience the bent shank and the really cheap Dans should bend very easily. I have several of the better made Dans and I still question the strength of the shanks. One I'm sure must be very high alloy/carbon steel .. but they are skinny.

But I could talk all day about skinny shanks and then justify the type by simply stating the fact that the type is the highest holding power in the world. And that's been the case since 1938. Long live the Dan. But the've been pinching fingers and gennerally making anchoring grief (usually just annoying) for decades.

*Lay out 30 or 40' of nylon line and pull on it. It's amazing how it seems like a rubber band. Lots of energy gets stored up.
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:26 PM   #518
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Eric, the following is just a re-cap of my previous test where I bent the shank of my Fortress FX-16.

In this test, the Shank was bent at either the 1st re-set (5:40 mark) or the 2nd re-set (5:55 mark). We have no way of confirming it, but my suspicion is that it bent during the later event. Rode was all chain. Certainly, a nylon rode would have reduced the extreme shock that I placed on the anchor.

(Note: I do not believe there is a flaw in the design strength of this Fortress anchor. I believe the anchor was undersized for this boat when being used in the conditions that the test was trying to simulate. I love my Fortress anchor, but not for use off the bow of my boat in a "swinging" anchorage.)

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Old 07-24-2016, 11:49 PM   #519
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Steve,
Yes I think you're right. I probably would'nt bend a properly sized Fortress on my boat (smaller than Panope) but w your boat and the high performance test you use and the undersized anchor the bent shank says "hey I'm over stressed".
With a smaller boat, a bigger anchor and under 1 knot reversal speeds almost certainly flawless performances would come to pass.

Perhaps the question needs to be asked .. did Fortress design their anchor to do 3+ knot reversals. Does any manufacturer. Or perhaps the question dos'nt need asking because no anchor manufacturer does. Perhaps anchors are designed to be the best that they can be and their limits fall where they will.
Again a test is good if it reveals usable information. But the scenario you've created .. anchor, boat size, anchor size, bottom and setting dynamics is not likely to be duplicated. So not very usable for specific anchor buying information but when compared to the many other anchors tested it reveals lots and lots of trends and general anchor behavior. This is not only very revealing but very useful for buying anchors and also greatly adding to one's knowledge of how to deploy anchors.

So very valid useful Steve. But often not ideally matched in the many variables.
Re the validity of the Danforth type there is only one anchor I always have on my boat .. a 13lb Danforth anchor.
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:21 AM   #520
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I read and watch most if not all items on this thread. Steve, you have performed exceptionally with generally well constructed anchor tests. Much, much thanks form me regarding all your efforts!

Two factors I feel should be addressed regarding some of your reverse direction reset tests:

1. When a wind is blowing it is seldom if ever that said wind performs an immediate reversal in direction.

2. When the current reverses direction it takes at the shortest of time spans at least a few minutes to fully reverse its direction. And, then, when doing so, the current begins to move from near zero speed to slowly (taking at least many minutes) gain speed to eventually reach its full flow.

That said; it seems to me that doing reverse direction anchor resets at much above 1/4 to 1/2 knot speed does not correctly depict natural conditions.

If I'm incorrect in my assertion please let me know why.

Cheers!

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