Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 06-23-2016, 12:56 AM   #481
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
The chain to port goes under, not around or over the drum. The windlass looks Muir(ish) but if so, modified. Interesting set up, but seems irrelevant to the testing.
Bruce, windlass is Simpson Lawrence 555 Seatiger. Possibly the most common manual anchor windlass ever made.

Steve
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 01:47 AM   #482
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,792
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
The chain to port goes under, not around or over the drum. The windlass looks Muir(ish) but if so, modified. Interesting set up, but seems irrelevant to the testing.
Bruce, I can see it does not go over or round the rope drum, I was referring to the white roller in the deck fitting ahead of that.

However, Steve has now sorted me out. The two chains are parts of separate rodes, so the chain is not taking the almost impossible circumnavigation of the set-up that it looked like it was doing...it would have defied physics actually, which is why I knew first impressions had to be wrong.
__________________

__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 09:55 AM   #483
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Mantus Re-setting.

I subjected the 44 pound Mantus Anchor to my repeated (10 times), back and forth re-set test. Performance was great. Let's add the Mantus to my list of anchors that perform perfectly in this very difficult test. The other winners were the Super Sarca, Sara Excel (Steel), and the Spade.

Re-call that the Manson Supreme had great difficulty with this test. My modifications of the anchor did improve the performance but it is still no match for the anchors listed above.

The Aluminum version of the Sarca Excel #5 (27 pounds) did quite well (but not perfect) with this test.

And most recently, the 10 pound Fortress FX-16 had significant problems re-setting during this test. It remains to be seen if a heavier Fortress anchor will perform better with this test.

Steve

Video #62
__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 10:20 AM   #484
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,596
Steve with sooo many videos of your exceptional anchor testing endeavor (think [hope] I watched em all!)... I don't recall; did you test Max anchors also?


Max Marine Products
Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2016, 10:46 AM   #485
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Art, I have not tested a Max anchor.

Steve
__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 10:11 AM   #486
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Rocna.

Video #63:
__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 01:24 PM   #487
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,082
Thanks so much for this excellent comprehensive and timely presentation.

Re the bruce/claw I d on't think any of us really understand it's dynamics. I had thought I'd "figured it out" several times only to turn my back on the theory and adopt another. It's got some very positive features and it's quite different from any other anchor. All the while I have this sneaking hunch that w the right modification it could be at least a top performer. But no one has figured that out yet if indeed it could be done or if there is any mod that would transform the anchor.

As an all-arround I agree w your choice of the Spade. Could be mine too if I had a chain winch and more chain on the rode. For you however I'd be just as inclined to choose the Mantus in Puget Sound and the the Manson or Excel to Alaska next week when you head out. However most of your readers here would probably use the Rocna based on the fact that so many think highly of it. Based both on advertising hype and word of mouth in the boating comunity. But if you test it I doubt if there would be much difference from what other tests have revealed ... except short scope and probable clogging like the Supreme. Since the first word in your post was Rocna I thought #486 was a test of the Rocna. I'm not on the edge of my chair for that but many here on TF are I'm sure.

As an analytical tool the angle scribed by a line from the attach point at the shank end to the attach point on the fluke could say a lot about anchor performance. Throat angle is what this is usually called but most or most all probably think it's the angle of the bulk of the shank to the fluke. But from a dynamic point of view I think it's attach point to attach point that counts. Notice the wide apparent angle of the Mantus compared to the Claw. But the Claw has the pronounced "L" shaped shank and the Mantus shank more or less points to the attach point on the fluke. Not unlike the Bugel anchor. And I think the shank of the Mantus must be thin to permit effective penetration. The shank of the Claw dos'nt impeed penetration until the bottom of the fluke is about 7" buried.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 02:17 PM   #488
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy View Post
Since the first word in your post was Rocna I thought #486 was a test of the Rocna. I'm not on the edge of my chair for that but many here on TF are I'm sure.
Um..... Er...... Ahhh..... Huuuuuh???

The above video features one and only one anchor. A ROCNA.

Perhaps you accidentally clicked a previous video?

Steve
__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 02:43 PM   #489
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 12,957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
Um..... Er...... Ahhh..... Huuuuuh???

The above video features one and only one anchor. A ROCNA.

Perhaps you accidentally clicked a previous video?

Steve
I am lost too...not with your posts though....the video matches the title.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 03:03 PM   #490
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy View Post
As an analytical tool the angle scribed by a line from the attach point at the shank end to the attach point on the fluke could say a lot about anchor performance. Throat angle is what this is usually called but most or most all probably think it's the angle of the bulk of the shank to the fluke. But from a dynamic point of view I think it's attach point to attach point that counts. Notice the wide apparent angle of the Mantus compared to the Claw. But the Claw has the pronounced "L" shaped shank and the Mantus shank more or less points to the attach point on the fluke. Not unlike the Bugel anchor. And I think the shank of the Mantus must be thin to permit effective penetration. The shank of the Claw dos'nt impeed penetration until the bottom of the fluke is about 7" buried.
Eric, I agree 100% with these statements. Mind you, I have no idea what that imaginary line angle should be. It probably varies a bit from one design to another as tip weight, fluke shape, and other variables must come into play.

I've never built an anchor, but I presume that getting that angle correct is mostly by trial and error for those who do.

Steve
__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 03:44 PM   #491
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,082
Yup,
I was watching the Rocna vid and got interupted (breakfast) w/o actually seeing the Rocna in the vid due to all the swirling sand and weed.
Then I got onto the older vid and though .....

All my above comments stand (I think) and it's a good reflection of the poor short scope performance on several anchor tests (one or two). I think the easily compacted fluke tip is a result of the way the tip is shaped. Most anchors have an inverted "V" shaped fluke tip whereas the Rocna's tip is shaped like an upright V. The inverted V sheds the mud/sand whereas the upright V tends to build up the mud. And because of the upright V a greater surface area is provided to pile up mud ... and I suppose one thing leads to another .. or in this case more of the same.
When on one of the anchor tests a testing person asked Smith (from Rocna) about the problem. Smith said one should'nt set an anchor at 3-1. He said he recomends his customers set at 5-1 and then shorten up. But what's the point of that if it won't hold at 3-1 anyway? So w many anchors that set fine at 3-1 and hold fine at 3-1 why buy a Rocna? One obvious reason is that the Rocna may be the highest holding power steel anchor in the world at long scope. It is IMO but only by a very small margin compared to anchors like Supreme and Spade. Many think only fools anchor at 3-1 so it dos'nt matter. At least many of us do anchor at 3-1 and are very interested in short scope performance. But the big question is will the Rocna hold at short scope. Compared to other anchors as evidenced by numerous anchor tests it dosn't but I'd like to see your test on the same bottom as the other anchors and otherwise w most all the variables the same to see how the Rocna holds at 3-1 and considerably less .. As many other anchors did.

What do you (or anybody else) think of my shank angle/throat angle thoughts? It's one of those things that is hard to express in words and I don't know if I'm being understood. I know many don't try to figure out what I'm saying on these wordy wanderings I fairly often do.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 03:54 PM   #492
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
Eric, I agree 100% with these statements. Mind you, I have no idea what that imaginary line angle should be. It probably varies a bit from one design to another as tip weight, fluke shape, and other variables must come into play.

I've never built an anchor, but I presume that getting that angle correct is mostly by trial and error for those who do.

Steve

Oh yes I'm sure it varies and in a sort-of design dance w all the other variables.

Re the "trial and error" you think happens I'm sure it does but IMO it probably falls way way short of what they and we would like. Throat angle? One would need to make 4 or perhaps more anchors w slight variations re one element of design and w all the others remaining constant. And how many details are there to test? Many many many IMO.
So no IMO there is very little testing done. It takes soooo much time and money the elements of marketing just won't allow it.

Haha and getting that line/throat angle correct is usually decided by copying another anchor. Not likely by trial and error.

A long time ago BruceK told me to quit modifying other people's anchors and design my own. That would be quite an undertaking I think. First I'd have to learn to weld .............
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 04:40 PM   #493
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Eric, you may be right that many anchor design elements are simply 'copied' by some anchor designers.

However, I have a strong feeling that Rex Francis has a pile of prototype anchors taller than you or me. No other way to explain why his anchors work so well.

Steve
__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 05:53 AM   #494
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,792
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
Eric, you may be right that many anchor design elements are simply 'copied' by some anchor designers.

However, I have a strong feeling that Rex Francis has a pile of prototype anchors taller than you or me. No other way to explain why his anchors work so well.

Steve
Having had a long chat about anchors with Rex several times, I think you are more right than you know Steve.
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 06:50 AM   #495
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,908
"Possibly the most common manual anchor windlass ever made"

The SL 555 was always top of the line , but always expensive, so not that many were purchased .

For the same bucks a cheapo power unit could be had , so that was the choice of the 5x a year anchor folks..

The SL 555 is probably one of the best , longets lasting hand jobs , but there only common now because the lasted ,where the cheapos failed and were deep 6ed.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 01:05 PM   #496
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Thanks for that insight, FF.

Steve
__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 01:07 PM   #497
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,596
"Brand new" in the box, i.e. totally unused 1970's/80's model...


Found this windless on CL at a super duper $400. Plan to soon install... for 1977 duplicate original on our Tollycraft. Gave up the ghost recently.


Simple is as Simple Does!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Windless.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	92.3 KB
ID:	53773  
Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 03:04 PM   #498
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,082
Peter, Steve,
I think the anchor research varies widely. I remember Rex showing pics of one of the prototypes for the SARCA that had a convex fluke .. Like the Rocna. V shaped. That dosn't mean they made 5 or 6 anchors the same except for throat angle to find the right angle. And then of course there's the testing and it appears ARA did most of their testing on the beach. And if the kind of research I was talking about was going on I doubt there would be dragging anchor on the beach. I have the utmost respect for Rex and he probably has done more research than most on anchors.

That's why we've got so many anchors that are considerably or way different from many others. I think there's 12 to 15 very different anchors on the US market alone. When real research is done there will probably be only two or three different anchors because all the others will have been found inferrior and died on the marketplace.

Art,
I bought a capstan in Surry BC for less than that new .. a prototype. I won't buy another Powerwinch because they have a very high speed gear taking the whole load that's only abour 5/8ths". Mine failed in a trailer boat winch and when I saw the little tiny gear it was obvious why it failed. The capstan I bought is an Endurance by brand. But you've got the Powerwinch and it will be just fine .. untill it breaks. One thing I like about the Powerwinch is the saddle shaped drum. Mine is straight except turned up at the ends. I had problems w that before but not w the new one.

Re Steve's tests the anchors I'd like so see dragged around a bit is the Boss and the Vulcan. Both have very long shanks .. the Vulcan's probably being heavier than the Boss but both must be heavy. The ballast chamber adds much more weight to the Vulcan so the fluke surface area must be about as small as anchors get. And quite a few anchor experts have said fluke surface area is directly proportional to holding power. Steve you like the Spade for some of the reasons I like the Vulcan. I've always been a fan of the Spade anchor. Both anchors lack fluke surface area but the Boss almost certianly has more.
The Boss (I'm guessing) has a rather light and large fluke. So it could be a higher performing anchor. Also I'm sure the reason Spade is the only one w built up hollow shank (oops other than Ultra) and I'll bet they felt they had to do it because the shank was so long. But of course the design and length of the shank was/is no heavier than most roll bar anchors w a shank AND a rool bar.
Anyway I think both of these anchors are top performers and getting more familiar w them will be a definite plus.
So if you find one lay'in on the float Steve drag it around a bit .. on stage.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2016, 06:19 PM   #499
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,596
[QUOTE=Nomad Willy;457326]

Art,
I bought a capstan in Surry BC for less than that new .. a prototype. I won't buy another Powerwinch because they have a very high speed gear taking the whole load that's only abour 5/8ths". Mine failed in a trailer boat winch and when I saw the little tiny gear it was obvious why it failed. The capstan I bought is an Endurance by brand. But you've got the Powerwinch and it will be just fine .. untill it breaks. One thing I like about the Powerwinch is the saddle shaped drum. Mine is straight except turned up at the ends. I had problems w that before but not w the new one.

[QUOTE]

Eric

Powerwinch on our Tolly (that recently broke) served for 39 years. $400 was worth not having to do anything but R&R exact duplicate winch. I have no problem hauling 3/4" rode line with it... till of course the winch gave up the ghost. After placing new one into service plan to keep the old one for parts.
Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2016, 10:09 PM   #500
Guru
 
dhmeissner's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: North America
Vessel Name: The Promise
Vessel Model: Roughwater 35
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,105
Caught Panpope in the act....
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	24
Size:	85.9 KB
ID:	53852  
__________________

dhmeissner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012