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Old 04-03-2016, 04:27 AM   #381
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Can I sound a note of hesitation on the mixing of testing and modifying, of anchors. I see that modifying one that has performed badly might be worth doing to see why, akin to a post mortem, but it seems to me that to date the manufacturers have bowled them up, and they got tested, objectively. Introducing another aspect is questionable,imo.
Once you effectively start telling manufacturers how they should design their anchors after modifying and retesting, in a way you are competing with them or arguing with them. If that happens the pure objectivity of repeated as identical as possible standardized testing can get lost, and to my mind that could have negative effects on the so far impressive objective nature of what has been so well and generously presented on TF.
I would not like to see that placed at risk.
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:15 AM   #382
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Can anyone here rate their homemade anchors? I have a Danforth-type anchor made by a local shop and it is tough to dig into the hard stuff here. However the blades are really blunt so I'm thinking of grinding them sharp so see how that helps. Once it's dug in however it holds extremely well.
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Old 04-03-2016, 08:09 AM   #383
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Can I sound a note of hesitation on the mixing of testing and modifying, of anchors. I see that modifying one that has performed badly might be worth doing to see why, akin to a post mortem, but it seems to me that to date the manufacturers have bowled them up, and they got tested, objectively. Introducing another aspect is questionable,imo.
Once you effectively start telling manufacturers how they should design their anchors after modifying and retesting, in a way you are competing with them or arguing with them. If that happens the pure objectivity of repeated as identical as possible standardized testing can get lost, and to my mind that could have negative effects on the so far impressive objective nature of what has been so well and generously presented on TF.
I would not like to see that placed at risk.
Bruce,

Your concerns are completely valid.

I'll add that my posting the Modification video just about guarantees that no manufacturer will send me another anchor. And that is just fine.

Because deep down, I am not an anchor tester. I am just some dude that is looking for answers to MY questions.

Steve
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Old 04-03-2016, 08:09 AM   #384
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Most experienced folk I know have ground their tips on Danforth style anchors.


The good news is they set better in weed. The bad is they impale larger shells more easily and wont set at all then.


As far as modifying anchors and worrying about manufacturers.


I stopped believing standardized testing years ago. I started dealing with long distance, frequent anchoring cruisers and got a better feeling about anchors than any test ever gave me. With the internet only backing what these real cruisers had said...my mind was pretty well made up and not surprisingly so loosly verified by some tests, and now clearly seen on our very own setting videos.


While not everyone is the "Wright Brothers" turning bicycles into airplanes...I say modify away...test however you can prove to me your designs/mods are better and we are all better off.


I highly doubt what I have seen and read so far (other than manufacturer interest is the anchoring videos for good reason) will change much in the anchoring world.
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Old 04-03-2016, 08:26 AM   #385
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Can I sound a note of hesitation on the mixing of testing and modifying, of anchors. I see that modifying one that has performed badly might be worth doing to see why, akin to a post mortem, but it seems to me that to date the manufacturers have bowled them up, and they got tested, objectively. Introducing another aspect is questionable,imo.
Once you effectively start telling manufacturers how they should design their anchors after modifying and retesting, in a way you are competing with them or arguing with them. If that happens the pure objectivity of repeated as identical as possible standardized testing can get lost, and to my mind that could have negative effects on the so far impressive objective nature of what has been so well and generously presented on TF.
I would not like to see that placed at risk.

Bruce - I see your point and agree with you... to a point.

In that:

1. It seems relevant the testing of already manufactured, retail marketed, generally accepted boating industry anchors should be performed on a per design objective basis comparing one to another's setting, holding, resetting, re-holding capabilities, at various rode scopes and in similar sea bottom conditions... until all have had chance to perform as best they can. Such as Steve has amply (thankfully) preformed.

2. Once most if not all generally available and publically accepted anchors have undergone Steve's test procedures (which I believe most have) I sort of feel it incumbent upon the tester to see if he can improve the best of the lot for setting and other capabilities. With Steve being so deeply immersed (pun intended) into his anchor test sequences and anchor design profiles there is probably no better hands-on boater who could offer suggestions for maybe even better design[s] on what were found to be "best" anchors.

3. I do not feel that it is worth time to try and perform design improvements on what have already proven to be not too good anchor
designs. Horses to finishing last in a big race usually get put to pasture.

4. IMO it is up to Steve, a consummate anchor capability researcher, as to whether or not he feels (sees) ways to improve any anchor's designs. And, I feel he maybe should keep his design improvement attempts and failures and successes out of public knowledge... at least until he has truly improved the design basis in some measurably important way. Then I believe that Steve (if he desires) may like to contact the anchor manufacturer (possibly travel for face time) regarding his ("under-wraps") video documented improved design[s] on that anchor... i.e., to have a private "powwow" with the manufacturer; if you get my drift (yup - another pun!). Of course, if Steve simply wants to altruistically provide his researched and recommended anchor design improvements for all to see and ponder in open forum such as TF - that too is just fine!
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Old 04-03-2016, 10:26 AM   #386
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I just think about them and modify them because I like to.
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Old 04-03-2016, 12:24 PM   #387
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Seems to me that Steve is testing anchors just because he's curious to discover how and why they work and he's been generous enough to post his results to benefit the community. The same thing in modifying an anchor, he's curious to see if it works. I'm surprised at some of the responses to his modifying anchors. It's Steve's program, he gets to do what he wants. Please just keep posting videos so we can all learn.
Also, if I was in the anchor designing business I'd be watching these videos and gathering info anywhere I could to help with my designs, You can always learn something.
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Old 04-03-2016, 01:09 PM   #388
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I have enjoyed this thread very much. The anchor design appears to headed in the direction of an anchor that can penetrate most bottoms, stay upright, greatly reduces the risk of the "Bruce rock" by attaching the shank closer to the tip and has a wide fluke for holding in soft bottoms. These are the same reasons I like the Boss.
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Old 04-03-2016, 01:51 PM   #389
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I might add that the Boss has no roll bar for easy roller storage and is weighted for easy deployment.
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Old 04-05-2016, 12:04 PM   #390
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I'll add that my posting the Modification video just about guarantees that no manufacturer will send me another anchor. And that is just fine.

Because deep down, I am not an anchor tester. I am just some dude that is looking for answers to MY questions.

Steve
Steve,

I would be glad to send you any of our anchor models for further testing or other means of torture and possible modification.

Years ago a US Navy guy called us with some questions about using Fortress anchors with the "port security barrier system" which is basically a fence that can be deployed around a Navy ship while in a foreign harbor to prevent another USS Cole-type of terrorist attack.

Per their calculations, the anchors which secured this fence had to be able to withstand an immediate shock load from stopping an 8,000 lb boat traveling at 60 mph.

During the conversation, he mentioned that they were familiar with our largest anchor, the FX-125 (I know it is on their LCAC), which he said was a "$1,000 anchor that we made into a $10,000 anchor," but he would not elaborate on what they were doing to it or how it was being used.

The point being is that anchors can be all modified for improvements, but as Psneeld alluded to, there are going to be compromises / trade-offs, such as a sharper anchor might result in it being structurally weaker, or less weight distribution can result in an unbalanced, more unstable anchor on the sea bottom.

Best of success with your ongoing research,
Brian
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Old 04-05-2016, 12:36 PM   #391
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Old 04-05-2016, 01:26 PM   #392
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I might add that the Boss has no roll bar for easy roller storage and is weighted for easy deployment.
I believe however that the Boss is only "weighted" to a small degree. Huge difference from the Spade, Excel, Delta and Vulcan. But the Supreme and Rocna are very slightly "weighted" too. And some anchors are weighted or ballasted at the other end. And some anchor shanks act as ballast also.

Old Deck,
Compared to other anchors how much ballast do you think the Boss has? Can you post pics? The Boss hasn't received as much "press" as most others. Do you think the "winglets" on the edges of the fluke "steer" the anchor's trailing edge to promote rolling right side up? Been a long time since I've seen a Boss and it's features are a bit hazy. Let's have a look at it if you have pics.
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Old 04-05-2016, 08:31 PM   #393
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Eric,

Perhaps I should have used the word "balanced" rather than "weighted". It is much better balanced to deploy and retrieve then the Delta or Bruce. There may be a little bit of weight in the toe which appears to double up on steel, just to provide strength for penetration. Photos of it not on the bow roller are probably better than seeing it on the boat. I usually go to the boat once a month and will try to take clear photos.
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:34 AM   #394
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Hi Steve,

Not sure if anyone has asked yet, but what manual windlass does Panope have? Any thought to juicing up your windlass arrangement either electrically or hydraulically?
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Old 04-06-2016, 02:26 AM   #395
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Murry, I use a Simpson Lawrence 555 windlass. I actually enjoy the exercise and I would not install a powered windlass even if one were given to me. I am not a total ludite as I did buy and install radar (I cant see through fog).

But if I can do a job reasonably quickly with manual tools (or no tools), I will choose that every time. I use a foot pump for water, oars to power the dink, blocks and tackle instead of winches for sailing, and I pull my shrimp pots by hand from 300 feet.

If I do not keep my boating m mechanically simple, it will end up just like my passion for aircraft: Dead.

Steve
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Old 04-06-2016, 03:04 AM   #396
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Thanks, Steve.

I get the simplicity thing.

My wife is at the helm while I use our little electric capstan winch for the 10kg Bruce. Keeping an open mind while I cast about for options when we get the winter storm anchor...a manual windlass puts another one in the quiver
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Old 04-06-2016, 05:15 AM   #397
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Quote:
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Bruce, Your concerns are completely valid.

I'll add that my posting the Modification video just about guarantees that no manufacturer will send me another anchor. And that is just fine.

Because deep down, I am not an anchor tester. I am just some dude that is looking for answers to MY questions.

Steve
Well, Steve, that may be so, but in doing so, you've answered the questions a lot of us also had, and better than previously answered anyway, so all credit and our combined thanks to you. Just keep doin' what you're doin', ok..?
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:19 PM   #398
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Murry, I use a Simpson Lawrence 555 windlass. I actually enjoy the exercise and I would not install a powered windlass even if one were given to me.
How much weight do you figure you could comfortably raise with it?
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:29 AM   #399
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Marko, Ultimately, I could raise perhaps 3 or 4 times my current ground tackle (45 lb anchor, 3/8" chain) as the windlass has a 'low speed' gear ratio that I almost never use.

But this would be a ridiculously slow retrieval so in practical terms, I might do OK with a 60 pound anchor and 1/2" chain. But that might get old pretty quick in deep anchorages. Also, wear and tear on the windlass might be too much for a long life if I asked it to lift more than I do.

There is almost no chance that I will ever get a bigger boat so for me, windlass shopping is something I will never have to do.

Steve
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Old 04-07-2016, 04:07 AM   #400
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Doing the best I can to understand the psneeld post above(save for the resharpening part),there is no comparison between relying on anecdotal reports and experience of one or other anchor someone happens to have, and serial, real world, constant conditions, specific testing of anchor after anchor, back to back, with objective observations, as we`ve have seen from Steve on TF. Comforted at a personal level it validated my guess at choosing an anchor, I`m equally impressed by the other anchors which did well. That Fortress would happily supply anchors for future testing is an accolade in itself.
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