Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-22-2015, 07:45 PM   #21
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,050
pointy end down? I'm curious about that??
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2015, 11:49 PM   #22
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
pointy end down? I'm curious about that??
Yup, the pointy bit (see photo below from Mantus site)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Mantus Anchor.jpg
Views:	35
Size:	92.7 KB
ID:	46783  
__________________

__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2015, 11:10 AM   #23
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,369
Oh oh........
__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2015, 11:59 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
I have found two new testing areas that have seabeds with different composition than the previous area.

Let's call the first location "Point Hudson". The tidal current runs at least 3 knots here and the resulting seabed is a sandy/rock combination. The navigation chart shows the symbol "RKY" here.

I attached the rode to the "Rock Slot" of the 45 pound Manson Supreme as I was not sure of the size of the rock and was worried the anchor may become lodged between larger rock. As it turned out, no large rock was present.

However, the chain did travel to the "tripping" position of the rock slot twice during the following set with somewhat unfavorable consequences.

Steve

__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2015, 03:51 AM   #25
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Same area as yesterdays test area (Point Hudson - a sand and rock combination).

The Manson's rode was attached to the normal position and it dug in and stayed dug in through multiple "reversals"

The Spade leaped into the seabed and stayed deeply buried. Because a strong current was running, I had to retrieve the anchor incrementally as I was alone and could not operate the boat and the windlass simultaneously.

This provided a look at four different (decreasing) scopes. Even at as little as 1.7 to 1, the anchor was still making some holding power.

I was so impressed by this performance, I sent Spade Anchor a check. I am now a Spade owner.

Steve

__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2015, 06:58 AM   #26
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 12,934
The spade was impressive...noticed though on the initial set in 1 anchor length, the rode was nearly lined up with the shank. When comparing it to an earlier video where your Manson supreme set in just a couple lengths, I'm so positive but the angle of pull seemed to be greater.

I am sure you have reviewed the videos more than I have, have you noticed that the anchors set quicker in general when the pull is aligned with the shank like most boaters try to do? My guess is most of our anchors hit and fall at random no matter how much we try, with your videos we now have a better idea, though you do favor the "torture test" in your testing....

Any feel for how important aligning it better may help? Or the several anchor lengths of drag is real, irrelevant if they predictably set in that amount ?

I don't care if my mason takes 3 anchor lengths every time as long as I know 99.9 percent of the time that is probably the required dig.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2015, 10:35 AM   #27
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
psneeld, I'll have go back and review the video's as I am not sure if rode orientation was a factor in setting distance. For this latest setting area of sand and rock, my preliminary feeling is that the substrate had more to do with the setting tendencies that rode orientation. I did get the impression that the Manson set faster in sand/mud and the Spade was faster in sand/rock.

And I agree that the difference between setting in one anchor length or three is probably not a big deal. The exception would be in a situation where a longer setting distance would increase the likelihood of fouling with bottom debris.

I should comment that I have not done enough repetition in this testing to draw firm conclusions. At this point we are probably still in the realm of "generalizations".

I have posted all, viewable videos that I have shot so far. No cherry picking.

Steve
__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2015, 11:42 AM   #28
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,050
I'm thinking the orentation of the rode in your tests Steve may be a result of or related to the current in your area. Also could be due to the shape of the fluke "flying" on the way down. Or a combination of the two. I have never done a free fall and I think my anchors "land" vertical and then fall over every wich way. Sometimes I pick the anchor up a few inches off the bottom, start backing and lower the anchor back down after I think the anchor starts following the boat or put another way "starts moving". The anchor should align w the rode and passing water. This is the way I intended to use the Supreme w/o the rool bar. Orient the anchor myself instead of relying on an automatic feature.

I also noticed that the Supreme and original XYZ had very different initial setting characteristics. The XYZ would jerk the bow around like it hooked the blade of a D8 Cat (there are some Cats in Thorne Bay if any would like to try your luck) and the Supreme picked up resistance (as felt on deck) more slowly. Like it slowly rolled into the bottom. Marin and others have commented that the Rocna jerks the bow during innitial setting and I suspect other anchor types set innitially in the big jerk dramitic way too. But at least in the case of the Supreme we know from quite a few anchor tests that the ultimate holding power of that anchor is .. well supreme. And I have concluded that "snappy" initial setting is not a sign of great holding power later in the game. So one might say in anchoring there is not a disadvantage in being a late bloomer.

Considering the above I lean very heavily toward toward setting dependability as opposed to spectacular hook ups during innitial setting. You need the performance when the anchor is burried not when it's scratching the surface.

Steve the Spade has had a very succesful history in the anchor tests. Like the Rocna it shows weaknes (at least comparitively within a test) at short scope. Also the Delta. The Supreme's ultimate short scope performance (when testsd) is always spectacular. Except in Chesapeake Bay mud. The Boss seemed to have the advantage there. And of course the Fortress trumped all comers there. Maximum short scope holding power seems the ultimate test to me. Most all (or all) anchors do well at 5-1 scope or above.

As with the Supreme's hook up point I always use the slot w a bolt installed to prevent movement. I think there is a slight advantage to holding power w the slightly greater throat angle. I suspect there is a slight advantage w setting performance using the lower hole but if the anchor sets dependably why not use the slot end w the bolt? I wish the anchor testers would declare what hookup point they use.

As far as the next breakthrough in design I think it will be w an anchor not using a ballast chamber or a roll bar. I see that as the only direction for increased performance.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2015, 11:43 AM   #29
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: Essex, Ct
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,080
Steve:


I certainly agree that the Spade was impressive in you latest tests. On the short scope tests of both the Manson and the Spade you can see that the shank was lifted once force was applied and both dragged, but the Spade still looked like it has an advantage. I wonder if it has a greater fluke angle than the Manson.


David
djmarchand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2015, 11:47 AM   #30
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,050
In response to Dave's post above I'd like to see the throat angle listed in anchor tests. The comparison may not be apples to apples though as some fluke don'd have a constant angle .. like the Claws and the Spade.

Murray,
Has there been any independent tests of the Mantus?
As to landing point down I don't see it unless it descended in a flat attitude .. shank wise and I don't see that happening. In the free falls as seen in Steve's vids the anchors seem to land flat on their flukes w the "point" horizontal w the sea floor. Lowered slowly one would think they would land on their "butt" .. not the tip of the fluke or tip.

Dave, The fluke ange on the Spade may be optimized for setting. And I think the fluke angle is slightly adjustable on the Supreme as per my post 28.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2015, 01:55 PM   #31
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: Essex, Ct
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,080
Fluke angle is a compromise for good performance in all bottoms. Fortress has a mud setting that increases the angle significantly.


So the Spade might work well in the conditions Steve has been testing but not so good in other bottoms.


David
djmarchand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2015, 03:41 PM   #32
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,050
Not so good at 3-1 in mud re Practical Sailor's test of 4/06.
Got bested by XYZ, HydroBubble, Bulwagga, and the Danforth. In descending order of performance.
At 7-1 scope got bested by XYZ, HydroBubble, Bulwagga and the Fortress.

See below the text re the Spade 80.

"The original bolt-together, two- piece Spade anchor is now avail- able in aluminum, galvanized steel, or stainless steel in six different sizes. We tested an all- aluminum Spade A80. It carries a lifetime warranty against break- age. In our long scope test it set immediately, earning an Excellent set rating. When we spun up the winch, it hit 500 pounds in just a few feet of pull and held steady at 460 pounds while dragging only two feet—very good, top-of- the-heap performance. It did not, however, like the short 3:1 scope. Though it set right away, it could not hit our target load and simply dragged through the slippery mud at 250 pounds."

I omitted the anchors that were much heavier. All these anchors were 23lbs or less .... the XYZ was only 13lbs. The Rocna was 28lbs and one of the anchors was 47lbs.

This is the aluminum Spade and it's good performance was almost certainly due to it's larger fluke area afforded by the aluminum material. Among other design features.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2015, 03:56 PM   #33
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,050
Following are the editors comments in another test for the Spade and Rocna. They both sound much the same but the Rocna had better holding numbers at 5-1 scope. Sand and mud mixed bottoms at four locations. Some of the structure of the Rocna part was scrambled in the pasting. The words are there though.

"The Spade, launched in 1999, was a revolution in anchor design, with French inventor Alain Poiraud pioneering the use of concave blade and surface area to give holding power rather than weight. It uses a wedge shaped ballast chamber to ensure weight is over the tip, so it digs in instead of ploughing a trench. For ease of stowage the Spade’s shank disconnects, but make sure you use the correct locking nut, as one boater lost his boat because of the wrong connector.
The Spade has proven itself in most tests and ours was no exception. At 5:1 scope it repeatedly held at the maximum 5000lb. On veering tests it held up to 5400lb. The beach pull tests showed how the weighted tip dug in instantly, with no drag-time. On shortened 3:1 scope, and at the third location, results were mediocre. Nevertheless, this was one of the top three performers on test."

TheRocnaincorporatescleverideasfromdifferentdesign sintoanextremelyeffectiveanchor.A long,angular Delta-esque shank meets a large concave surface blade area associated with the Spade, with a chisel-blade tip and ‘skids’onthebackofthebladesensuringrapidpenetratio n.LiketheDelta,ithasnomovingpartsandisself- launching. Designed by sailing veteran and New Zealand boat-builder Peter Smith, Rocnas are made from alloy steels with hot dip galvanised zinc finish. Weight is in the tip, not the heel.
The Rocna was a powerful, impressive performer in our tests, recording instant sets at multiple 5000lb maximum o near max) pulls at 5:1 scope. On the second 5:1 pull, it released suddenly at max tension when revs were reduced, only to reset instantly at 4300lb of resistance, which was astonishing for an instant set. It was less impressive at 3:1 scope and under veering tests, but remained a consistent top performer.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2015, 11:25 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
Here is a 40 lb. Luke (COPY). I am using an improved camera lash-up that puts the camera off to one side of the anchor. My preference is to not reveal the secret.

Steve

__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 09:35 AM   #35
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
100 pound Fisherman.

__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 10:55 AM   #36
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: Essex, Ct
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,080
The last video of the big Fisherman on a nylon rode is interesting. Even when you kicked the power up, there was a noticeable angle between the rode and the shank of the anchor. The shank stayed horizontal (or a little below) to the sea bed. This was probably due to the levering moment of the fluke.


Your new camera bridle shows this clearly. Keep it coming.


David
djmarchand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 11:45 AM   #37
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,050
Rumor has it that this type of anchor needs no chain.
History wise what came first .. the Kedge anchor or chain?
The early Kedges were partly made out of wood.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 12:37 PM   #38
Senior Member
 
Panope's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Panope
Vessel Model: Colvin Saugeen Witch, Aluminum
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 279
A decreasing scope shootout between the Manson and the Spade.

Steve

__________________
If I visualize my boat without a mast, I see a trawler.
Panope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 02:31 PM   #39
Guru
 
angus99's Avatar
 
City: Valley Forge, PA
Country: US
Vessel Name: Stella Maris
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,019
These are brilliant videos and, as the owner of an 80-lb. Manson Supreme, to my thinking they settle all questions about anchor setting/holding and the topic should henceforth be banished from the TF. (Unless somebody wants to argue that one of those crabs interfered with the Spade on short scope.)

angus99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2015, 02:36 PM   #40
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 12,934
Not asking you to...but I wonder what the score would be after a 100 similar tests...

I am dying to see how a ROCNA and SARCA would do for all the diehards out there.
__________________

psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012