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Old 01-08-2016, 05:59 AM   #21
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Why not simply use the proper sized anchor (not a pocket fob) and simply allow the anchor to do its job.

Additionally there will be more surface area to hold the bottom .

My 60H Danforth is way!!! bigger than the 35H.

When chain with or without an extra weight gets tight its simply a Bar with no shock absorbing ability at all.

Nylon remains stretchy under load .
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Old 01-08-2016, 08:08 AM   #22
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I'm just say'in those w all chain would be better off w a combination rode of the same weight.

This thread has turned into a forest of details 80% of which are off topic. This is not an accusational statement as I know how easy it is to do. The above sentence in this post is the subject. To bias the weight of an all chain rode well fwd toward the anchor to get a better rode angle. The operative word is BIAS.
I think that many will concede the "biased weight" concept as being a better rode overall...

I would also be better off getting rid of my car and walking everyplace.....not going to happen and neither is going to a combo rode because my all chain rode and style anchor are a COMPROMISE for the total anchoring concept.

NOT JUST ONE ASPECT OF ANCHORING.....BUT REAL CRUISING.

If you want total agreement with your concept...start an anchoring thread for surviving severe conditions...then you will get some real input on "MAX HOLDING".
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Old 01-08-2016, 08:40 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by FF View Post
Why not simply use the proper sized anchor (not a pocket fob) and simply allow the anchor to do its job.

Additionally there will be more surface area to hold the bottom .

My 60H Danforth is way!!! bigger than the 35H.

When chain with or without an extra weight gets tight its simply a Bar with no shock absorbing ability at all.

Nylon remains stretchy under load .
+1 What he said.
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Old 01-08-2016, 10:28 AM   #24
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Well, I'm not biased either way, and would readily agree that for smaller craft, like the 26 ft yacht we once had, combination rode is fine, we had a 26 ft length of quite heavy chain, then all nylon the rest. I also agree that if you have to anchor often in very deep water, then a combination with 50 odd metres of chain, then brait nylon is reasonable, but for a boat 30ft up, anchoring in shallow to moderate depths, the all chain rode with appropriate windlass is probably the best all round set-up, as it is all so straightforward to use, and with no bottom chafe or spliced join concerns.
+1 I agree with all of the above!
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Old 01-08-2016, 10:45 AM   #25
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Well, I'm not biased either way, and would readily agree that for smaller craft, like the 26 ft yacht we once had, combination rode is fine, we had a 26 ft length of quite heavy chain, then all nylon the rest. I also agree that if you have to anchor often in very deep water, then a combination with 50 odd metres of chain, then brait nylon is reasonable, but for a boat 30ft up, anchoring in shallow to moderate depths, the all chain rode with appropriate windlass is probably the best all round set-up, as it is all so straightforward to use, and with no bottom chafe or spliced join concerns.
What I propose sort of agrees with you in that enough chain is carried for all chain in protected shallower anchorages with the back up of greater scope by having the combo available at end of chain. I carry over 200 ft of chain backed up by the nylon slice.
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Old 01-08-2016, 11:06 AM   #26
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As I have mentioned before, all chain has other attributes... Eric's 10' of heavy chain attached to a heavier that usual anchor may not be able to be lifted by the windless USUALLY sized for the length of boat.. the weight of the all chain rode is lifted in increments.
Plus the all chain rode is MUCH better lessening sailing around the anchorage than a mostly rope rode. the chain dragging around the sand.. or mud really keeps the boat from drifting around.. until the wind blows enough to lift the chain from the bottom.

One of my pet peeves is a schmuck with a all rope rode that anchors in the middle of a group of all chain rode boats.. and deploys TWICE the length of rode.. then wonders why he plays bumper boats all night as his boat drifts around.
All chain is used for a good reason.

IT WORKS BETTER CONSISTENTLY! ...

HOLLYWOOD
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Old 01-08-2016, 12:30 PM   #27
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I have not proposed adding weight to an all chain rode. My talking about using a bigger anchor has always gone along w reducing the chain rode weight by eliminating 3/4 of the chain and using a some bit of the weight saved to increase the remaining chain weight and some to increase the anchor weight. The overall result would be a much to considerably lighter rode. The huge anchor scenairo was an extreme example of weigght placed in the anchor rather than in the rode. For higher performance, lighter weight or both.

As I've said for years the best place (performance wise) for weight is in the anchor .. not the rode.
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Old 01-08-2016, 12:40 PM   #28
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What I propose sort of agrees with you in that enough chain is carried for all chain in protected shallower anchorages with the back up of greater scope by having the combo available at end of chain. I carry over 200 ft of chain backed up by the nylon slice.
That goes along nicely w what I've been supporting. Get the heavy chain off of the upper rode where it rarely sees water and put that weight savings (if desired) into the lower chain or the anchor .. or both .. or neither by just removing the chain and substituting nylon. Why have a lot of chain weight than dosn't give any benefit?
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Old 01-08-2016, 01:25 PM   #29
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Sounds like some are saying they invented rocket science.

I don't think I know of any cruiser I have had discussions with that uses an all chain rode that doesn't envision a storm or deep water situation where adding nylon wouldn't be already thought of.

Saying carrying enough chain to anchor 90-95 percent of the time for convenience and adding nylon as necessary is what I would think most of us graduated from way down the experience ladder.
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Old 01-08-2016, 02:37 PM   #30
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As psneeld has said many times it all comes down to the realities of each situation. Theories are certainly fun to bandy about but theories are not what keep your boat sitting where you want it to sit.

We boat in an area with protected or relatively protected anchorages. We don't get hurricanes (yet). We don't have massive long fetches of open ocean like the southwestern Pacific. We have good forecasting and if one boats in the inside waters as we do, a protected anchorage or harbor is never very far away.

Sure, we get wind and strong currents.

We, like the vast majority of powerboats in this area and probably a fair number of sailboats, too, use an all-chain rode with a power out and in windlass. It makes anchoring a snap. Our boat couldn't care less about weight in the bow as long as it's within reason. So 200', 300' of chain--- it makes no meaningful difference to the boat's handling and efficiency (I'm not interested in the armchair difference here, it doesn't matter.)

We don't have to pull our rode and anchor by hand unless the windless breaks. I had to do it once when the original windlass to the boat DID break and it was not that big a deal although I wouldn't want to make a habit of it.

The catenary from a 5:1 to 7:1 scope takes care of all but the most adverse conditions here. We use a very long V-bridle snubber which provides additional shock absorbing and offers some protection in the very unlikely event all the catenary gets pulled out of the chain. The snubber has the added benefit of eliminating any chain noise.

We so far have never encountered any reason to use a shorter scope than 5:1 and the manufacturer of our anchor recommends at least this scope with an all-chain rode. I know there are situations where a very short scope may be needed but so far we've not run into any of them.

So for our boat in our anchorages all-chain makes all the sense in the world. A combination rode would be less practical for us and would not be any more effective.

For a different boat in a different region this may not be the case.

For us, boating is not an experiment. Our primary goal is to reduce or eliminate every aspect of operating a boat that presents a hassle or a risk. So we selected what we believe is the best all-around anchor for our boat and anchoring conditions, fitted it with the most reliable and effective rode for the anchor and our anchoring conditions and that's that. This makes anchoring the boat as basic and easy a function as starting the engines, and other than dealing with the variables of depth and location it's not a task we give any thought to whatsoever outside of simply doing it.

It's a very tired old expression but that doesn't reduce its validity: if it works don't change it and if it ain't broke don't fix it.
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Old 01-08-2016, 03:04 PM   #31
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I'm just say'in those w all chain would be better off w a combination rode of the same weight.

This thread has turned into a forest of details 80% of which are off topic. This is not an accusational statement as I know how easy it is to do. The above sentence in this post is the subject. To bias the weight of an all chain rode well fwd toward the anchor to get a better rode angle. The operative word is BIAS.

I think that's another broad brush that may or may not be true for a given boat/anchorage/anchor/wind/current/etc., may depend on specific implementation with all the variables just right...

If I had a 300' all-chain rode, let's say 300-lbs just for example... splitting that into a 150' chain segment and what -- 9000' of rope or whatever it takes to make up the other 150 lbs -- buys me what? If I'm anchored in 10' of water in that case, I'm using an all-chain rode, even at 7:1 scope.

Not arguing against a combo rode; that's what we use here, now, for a while. Just think the words "better off" are more specific to the individual circumstances one's trying to solve.

-Chris
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Old 01-08-2016, 04:24 PM   #32
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Ye gods Ranger ... 9000' of ? ...

Put however many feet of line you like or need. By your example I'd leave 100' of chain taking off 200' of the stuff for a 200lb reduction in weight. Spend that 200lbs as a present. First get 200' of line and then you've got 170lbs about to spend on a heavier anchor (much heavier) or a lighter boat or something inbetween. Just limit the weight of all the equipment on board what you need. No more. And if you think the boat's too light then put a bit more ballast in the bilge. However you do it (using this idea) you'll wind up w a better boat.

Speaking of the whole idea it will have a cuttoff point in boat size where the all chain may be better. Or it's limited to gypsy size that is available for chain/ line combination. Either that or one would need to employ a reel winch. Then you could have as many different sizes of shackles, lines and chain as you wish. In one of these two anchor threads I posted fishing boats w reel winches.
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Old 01-08-2016, 07:43 PM   #33
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The "Anchor Buddy"(AB) weight device is not really a catenary, it is designed to be lowered down the rode to a position just above seafloor at low tide. The effect is to cause the rode to lie along the seafloor from the anchor to the location of the AB, reducing upward pull on the anchor from the boat which might otherwise disengage the anchor.
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Old 01-08-2016, 07:54 PM   #34
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Eric,

I have a program that calculates scope required to keep a selected amount of chain lying on the bottom under specified conditions. I ran an example of all chain and mixed chain/rode using heavy chain that weighed the same as all chain. Using the specific example the required scope was 6.4 for all chain and 4.0 for 50 ft. of very heavy chain. Settable below. Your intuition was right on.

Paul


Conditions:
Typical 40 ft .trawler
Wind 27 kts
Water depth 30 ft.
Anchor is set and does not drag. Weight or type does not enter into calculations
Total weight of chain + rode =145 lbs. in both cases
Chain weight is for HT
Scope is calculated so that 6 ft. of chain is lying on bottom. (0 deg. angle with bottom)

All chain 50 ft, chain +rode
Chain length 193 ft. 50 ft.
Chain size in
Weight/ft. 0.74 lb./ft. 2.90 lb./ft.
Total weight 145 lb. 145 lb.
Nylon rode length 0 71 ft.
Scope 6.4 4.0
Tension at bow 370 lb. 370 lb.
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Old 01-08-2016, 09:29 PM   #35
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Paul,
Very very good of you to prove my theory. Are you sure you're right and that there's no mistake?

waddenkruiser on the thread "Anchor Rode Poll" on page 4 offeren a great deal of data on post #69 and 76 that left me snowed in the forest. I tried but just couldn't wade through all his data. I sure appreciated his effort but it was over my head and no one seemed to respond so I thought everyone else was in the same state as I or it didn't add up.

I presented this theory on TF 5 or so years ago but got tired of the baugh humbug response and let it slide. I'm glad I raised the question again. With so many new members now there's a higher level of objectivity and a more receptive attitude toward things new. New ideas and objectivity is the essence of stimulating and interesting forums the world over. Don't go away Paul as I'm sure there's more things down the channel to de-bunk. You are now the official myth buster. Thanks.

I
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Old 01-08-2016, 10:25 PM   #36
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Clarity does have an advantage. Now explained clearly, I don't think people disagree with the bias theory, but that doesn't mean they think it is worth doing.
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Old 01-08-2016, 10:59 PM   #37
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Hollywood: "One of my pet peeves is a schmuck with a all rope rode that anchors in the middle of a group of all chain rode boats.. and deploys TWICE the length of rode.. then wonders why he plays bumper boats all night as his boat drifts around. All chain is used for a good reason. IT WORKS BETTER CONSISTENTLY! ... "

Here's a little different perspective: One of my pet peeves when deployed with my combination rode, is that an all chain rode boat will later anchor in my swing circle. After the wind switches, I am immediately accused of having a dragging anchor, and then have to re-anchor. This can get ugly at 0200.

I recognize the challenge of anchoring with a combo rode in the vicinity of all chain rodes, but most later-arriving chain rode boaters seem to be insensitive to this issue. And anchoring further from a bay full of chain rodes boats may mean anchoring in another bay. So, it's probably good for everyone.

Anchoring with all-chain rodes at short scopes only works better consistently when everyone else is doing the same, and when weather/current conditions do not cause the all-chain catenary to become minimized.

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Old 01-08-2016, 11:26 PM   #38
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I think the whose right part of it rests on common sense, consideration and good seamanship.
Trollers in SE AK that anchor out every night don't like line roders. Some of them don't seem to move an inch after their ground tackle hits the bottom. They have their favorite anchorages and feel it's their turf.
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Old 01-09-2016, 01:17 AM   #39
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My talking about using a bigger anchor has always gone along w reducing the chain rode weight by eliminating 3/4 of the chain and using a some bit of the weight saved to increase the remaining chain weight and some to increase the anchor weight.
I experimented a bit with my previous boat which was 60 tons. The primary was a big 100lb anchor with 400ft of chain.

However, I took the secondary 40lb Danforth-style, attached a fathom of really heavy chain (don't remember the size though) and the rest was nylon. It worked excellent. Never had really high winds to test it in, but I was often anchored just off Newport Beach in heavy swells and rollers.

So I'm following the same principle out here in the Gulf on my 20ft CC with a 22 lb anchor, 1 meter of 3/8" chain and the rest is polypropylene (too many sharp limestone rocks here). Never had a problem in gusty winds to 30 knots.
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Old 01-09-2016, 02:33 AM   #40
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Quote:
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I think the whose right part of it rests on common sense, consideration and good seamanship.
Trollers in SE AK that anchor out every night don't like line roders. Some of them don't seem to move an inch after their ground tackle hits the bottom. They have their favorite anchorages and feel it's their turf.
Eric, all the research on this has ben done, and largely you are right. That's why the Anchor Buddy instructions advise running the kellet down the rode until it is about a metre above the bottom. Largely guessed, as you cannot see it, but doesn't really matter, as not that critical - just needs to be near the anchor, as you say.

The heavier anchor is better argument has a limitation which you yourself have advised us you suffer from - it's the hernia factor. That is, impractical. And so, (and you're gonna hate me for this), that is why the all chain rode - or a substantial length of chain on a combined rode - is the best compromise, because the weight in the chain, which, by and large, you never have to lift all at once, but the forces of nature plucking at your boat do, therefore allows lighter anchors to still work well.
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PS. apologies, but also posted this on the rode type poll thread, but it is actually more relevant here...
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