Anchor rode question.....again

[psneeld]

My swivel helps correct the problem...in NO way does it CREATE the problem.

Based on another post, maybe more here, and certainly more in other threads and readings.....people find the use of a swivel beneficial and I bet they made a decision after struggling with orienting the anchor without one...like me.

Having anchored many a boat and used to teach an anchoring class at a Sea Ray dealership....and played around with a variety of anchors and rollers....thinking that one answer cures all anchor roller problems is ...well you decide.

 

[fryedaze]

Snubber

Does anyone have opinions on snubbers like this one?

 

[Rebel112r]

I don't see chain twist as a problem, until your boat starts to list. A cure would be to pull into deeper water and let it straighten out, much like a yo-yo string. All us old farts must remember yo-yo string problems.

 

[ksanders]

Does anyone have opinions on snubbers like this one?

Hey, thats what I'm making!

Parts were ordered from amazon a couple days ago!

 

[Marin]

Does anyone have opinions on snubbers like this one?

My only comment is that in my opinion it's not long enough. We were taught to let the chain grab down a good ten or more below the surface of the water and then let the bight of chain between the bow roller and the chain grab down considerably more then that. All that weight down low acts sort of like a kellet and helps reduce the angle of pull on the anchor.

If the thing above the chain hook is one of those rubber shock absorbers, they seem to be a bit controversial. Some people like them and some say they offer no real value in terms of shock absorbing and tend to fall apart over time. We've never felt the need for one so have had no direct experience either way.

 

[fryedaze]

My bow is 6 feet off the water. The two lengths that make up the V are 8 feet long and the straight length with the rubber snubber is 5 feet long. I think that will put the hook about 5-6 feet under water. In the Chesapeake I have never anchored in more than 10 feet. I can see why it would be better to be longer if anchoring in deeper water. It may have been smarter to leave the loops off the ends and have longer lines that can be adjusted to the hawse pipe.
I have read that the rubber snubbers aren't any better than the stretch of the line. I will give it a try.

 

[psneeld]

My bow is 6 feet off the water. The two lengths that make up the V are 8 feet long and the straight length with the rubber snubber is 5 feet long. I think that will put the hook about 5-6 feet under water. In the Chesapeake I have never anchored in more than 10 feet. I can see why it would be better to be longer if anchoring in deeper water. It may have been smarter to leave the loops off the ends and have longer lines that can be adjusted to the hawse pipe.
I have read that the rubber snubbers aren't any better than the stretch of the line. I will give it a try.

What I was thinking too...but you could make up some pairs of similar line with loops on both ends....and add them if you need more length if trying to keep it simple...


...or just add a couple of looped docklines with the non loop end fed back to the tie off point...no biggie.

 

[jleonard]

What I was thinking too...but you could make up some pairs of similar line with loops on both ends....and add them if you need more length if trying to keep it simple...


...or just add a couple of looped docklines with the non loop end fed back to the tie off point...no biggie.

I think I follow that , but youse guys are making me loopy!

 

[psneeld]

I think I follow that , but youse guys are making me loopy!

Great Loopy?

 

[Rebel112r]

I see Mantus has added the little black piece to make sure the chain does not fall out. Never had a problem with mine, yet! I have watched those rubber snubbers work on dock lines, when conditions were not so good, and they seem to work very well. Cannot see how they wont do the same on your bridle.

 

[Djbangi]

These rubber snubbers, assuming you are comparing the correctly sized nylon to the correctly sized rubber, are equivalent in performance to 6' of nylon. To get the full benefit of a nylon snubber you need about 30'. 30' of nylon will absorb all of the energy of a moving, sailing and yawing at anchor, vessel in about 30 knots. If the wind increases the nylon still has opportunity for more stretch. So to be equal to the 30' of nylon you would need 5 rubber snubbers and if a bridle, 10.

I know which is cheaper, easier to assemble, easier to deploy, looks more attractive and is easier to stow.

You need spare snubbers, as they are consumables and you need a second set of snubbers for winds over, say 40 knots.

They are excellent to add elasticity to mooring lines.

Rubber snubbers have a limited amount of stretch. Once they reach that length they can stretch no more, or they will break.

I have not heard of good stainless swivels breaking, Kong nor Ultra. That is not to say they do not fail - I have not heard of them. Galvanised (brand name - Peerless, Campbell etc) swivels appear to meet their specifications. These cheaper swivels have the major advantage you can see the swivel assembly. Other stainless swivels are notorious for breaking. They fail at the clevis pins, see earlier post. They fail at the swivel joint, and they fail at the fork through incorrect attachment. I am sure by now everyone here attaches their swivel correctly (and everyone here uses RATED shackles), with a small section of chain or at least a RATED shackle between swivel and anchor - but walk round your marina and note how many have the fork attached to the anchor - these devices should be sold with a health warning!

The mystery to me remains - given the expense, why the popularity.

 

[ksanders]

These rubber snubbers, assuming you are comparing the correctly sized nylon to the correctly sized rubber, are equivalent in performance to 6' of nylon.

Where does that come from?

The reason I ask is that I've personally seen these things stretching.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,

Loopy De Loop 22 - Swash Buckled - Video - Trilulilu

 

[Djbangi]

Where does that come from?

The reason I ask is that I've personally seen these things stretching.

testing them!

Of course they stretch - but not very much. edit if they stretch too much, they break. but its the amount they stretch vs the load to make them stretch. its about energy absorption. close edit

I took one of these rubber snubbers, like the Taylor Made one and I compared the stretch of Nylon with that of the snubber. I have the load cell etc. Simple really.

its all documented in Practical Sailor.

 

[eyschulman]

Does anyone have opinions on snubbers like this one?

Your snubber looks good for lite to medium use. For real shock loads nothing like 60-80 ft of 1/2 inch three stand nylon

 

[Marin]

In the Chesapeake I have never anchored in more than 10 feet.....It may have been smarter to leave the loops off the ends and have longer lines that can be adjusted to the hawse pipe.
.

For those kind of anchoring depths I would think your setup will be great. With regards to the loops, if you want the full length of the snubber out, use the loops. If you want a shorter snubber in a particular anchorage, just cleat off the lines above (or I suppose it would be below) the loops.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Scott wrote;
"My swivel helps correct the problem...in NO way does it CREATE the problem."

Well if you haven't got the swivel you don't have the problem. And if you have the swivel you have the problem. The swivel brings about the problem by allowing it to happen. You appearently have the problem as you have the swivel. If you have all chain take it off and you won't need it as the anchor will come up orientated prpopperly every time.

The above is assuming one has a bow roller w the grove in the center of the roller that clocks the orientation of the chain.

 

[eyschulman]

There seems to be some confusion as to the purpose and use of the Ultra flip swivel. The unit is designed to automatically flip(reorient an anchor) as it rolls up and over the bow roller. Twisted chain or rode has nothing to do with this function for which I use it. If you have remote controls for windless in pilot house this is a very helpful function. I also agree with ski there seems to be no landslide of failures for this unit or other well engineered swivels. My anchors before swivel did not come up oriented right may be 50/50% .a crap shoot.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Eye,
It is a 50/50 crap shoot if you have a swivel. During it's adventure to the sea floor and back it is free to rotate in any position it wants. So it can come up clocked in any orientation. All chain, no swivel and no problem.

If you look at Peter's swivel it can be seen that the bolt remains in a position that twisting or bending of the other two parts will result in tension only on the bolt. The ball swivel will have a very high bending load on the ball shank if pulled at right angles or thereabouts. I think the ball swivel only moves about 45 degrees. When the rode swings more than that the bending load on the ball shank probably is very high.

 

[Djbangi]

There seems to be some confusion as to the purpose and use of the Ultra flip swivel. The unit is designed to automatically flip(reorient an anchor) as it rolls up and over the bow roller. Twisted chain or rode has nothing to do with this function for which I use it. If you have remote controls for windless in pilot house this is a very helpful function. I also agree with ski there seems to be no landslide of failures for this unit or other well engineered swivels. My anchors before swivel did not come up oriented right may be 50/50% .a crap shoot.

I should predicate the comment by admitting I think many bent anchor shanks occur during retrieval, especially when retrieval is too quick and/or when there is a bit of a chop in an anchorage.

I think anyone who sees the Ultra swivel will understand exactly how it works. I am sure it is excellent but I am interested to know well it works after a big blow and the anchor does its jib properly and sets deeply. The Ultra is an excellent anchor and those that use it attest to its excellent holding capacity - so it sets deeply and securely. The swivel, or the self righting part, then acts as a lever on the end of the shank so I have to wonder what loads it will sustain when hit by a snatch load as a wave lifts the bow when the chain is tight (and the windlass still turning).

Other swivels when connected by the fork to the shank (thus incorrectly) are documented as bending.

 

[psneeld]

Scott wrote;
"My swivel helps correct the problem...in NO way does it CREATE the problem."

Well if you haven't got the swivel you don't have the problem. And if you have the swivel you have the problem. The swivel brings about the problem by allowing it to happen. You appearently have the problem as you have the swivel. If you have all chain take it off and you won't need it as the anchor will come up orientated prpopperly every time.

The above is assuming one has a bow roller w the grove in the center of the roller that clocks the orientation of the chain.

Nope...no groove in the roller so way off base....bad assumption.

 

[BruceK]

Ok, that's it. This weekend when I go down to the boat I'm going to take the swivel out, and then we'll see if we have any more issues than we have to now. Which is never a jamming of the sliding shackle, or fouling of the chain on that shackle, but only sometimes the anchor not aligned well enough with the roller to re-align on retrieval - easily fixed as previously described.

So if Bruce has that, shank/chain jamming or fouling, then I suspect he has the wrong type and size of shackle in the anchor slot, so yes please Bruce - we need close pic of that set-up. The correct shackle size, type and fixation in the slot are all critical. I have clarified this with Rex personally several times, and mine is right. You may or may not be able to see it in these pics, so I'll take a closer one over the weekend while down there doing a djbangi and removing the damn swivel…

I need to visit the boat for a pic. I could only post a pic of a foul up if I dispense with the swivel, loath to do that on past experience. The shackle, a Ronstan with rating (I rejected the massively cheaper shiny Guangzhou versions) at Whitworths, may not be as long and narrow as Peter`s, which I can see might better keep the chain further from the shank.(Peter, I thought you had that occur too, I think we even discussed it).
Part of the Super Sarca design and operation involves the shackle pin sliding in the slot, Sarca does not supply the shackle but specifies size, and s/steel,not gal, presumably for strength and hardness.

 

[Peter B]

Yes, Bruce, you are right, it needs to be a straight U-shaped shackle at least one size up from the chain, Mine is 2 sizes up from memory, and narrow enough the bolt sits snuggish, but not over-tight or loose, in the slot, and made of high grade stainless steel, (until one gets above about Sarca #7 or 8, in which case galvanised is ok, as then it is so big it doesn't matter, I think Rex said), AND...it must NOT be a BOW shackle..!

If you have trouble with the chain fouling that anchor shackle Bruce, then getting one with a longer U (but not wider) would solve it. I have never had that happen.

 

[Djbangi]

I stand corrected.

'D' shackle for a SARCA, bow shackle for most other anchors (except CQR and Manson Ray). Most anchors should take the bow through the slot. The RAY and genuine CQR only have a circular hole in the shank and will only take a pin. So biggest 'D' you can get into the hole/slot (and then for the SARCA use a bow to attach to the 'D', bow through the 'D' and pin through the chain??).

I think stainless is recommended as it 'slides' and gal might lock up - but I'm not an expert on the SARCA.

Very willing to be educated - maybe one of you owners can define exactly what you use with sizes vs the sizes of the anchor etc?

But I would only buy a brand name stainless shackle with a known (Ronstan/Witchard) and compatible WWL. Similarly I would only buy a rated gal shackle, known brand, WLL on the bow. They are relatively cheap - its not worth trying to save on something that costs $15 and on which you depend for a good night's sleep.

Jonathan

 

[Djbangi]

On twisted chain

Our chain twists on deployment.

We have shallow 'V' roller and an Excel anchor. We have a longish run between gypsy and bow roller, maybe 5', though 2' are covered by the deck. I can see the chain rolling (twisting) between gypsy and the bow roller itself.

I do not know why it rolls or twists.

It might be because the welds of the chain are 'off centre' - something to do with the manufacturing process? It might be because the anchor rotates, though cannot say I have noticed this - and it would take a lot to force or have sufficient tightness of turn/twist (if its the anchor) to cause the chain to twist 'inboard' of the roller. It might be because the 'V' of the roller is slightly 'not quite right' but one side 'looks' to be the mirror image of the other.

The twist is not an issue (except the anchor on retrieval can address the bow roller randomly in the absence of intervention). Its all simply an intellectual puzzle

We have no swivel, just a bow shackle and one of AR's Boomerangs.

It all remains a mystery.

I'm inclined to think its the weld - but have no quantitative basis for this.

 

[BruceK]

Yes, Bruce, you are right, it needs to be a straight U-shaped shackle at least one size up from the chain, Mine is 2 sizes up from memory, and narrow enough the bolt sits snuggish, but not over-tight or loose, in the slot, and made of high grade stainless steel, (until one gets above about Sarca #7 or 8, in which case galvanised is ok, as then it is so big it doesn't matter, I think Rex said), AND...it must NOT be a BOW shackle..!

If you have trouble with the chain fouling that anchor shackle Bruce, then getting one with a longer U (but not wider) would solve it. I have never had that happen.

I recall puzzling over shackles, not choosing the one you have. Mine is U shaped,good quality,rated, not a bow shackle, but not the long narrow version you have increasing distance between shank and chain. Eliminating the swivel is good, one less potential failure point.

 

[eyschulman]

Eye,
. All chain, no swivel and no problem.

It was when I used all chain that orientation was 50/50. Now with the Ultra flip the anchor comes over the roller as it should 100%. Now that may not sound like much but the way I deal with my boat it is a big help. I usually run the boat alone or sometimes with the aid of my wife and when I raise the anchor most of it is done from the helm station. I often clean chain by slow segmental retrieval allowing for mud to loosen from the chain sometimes I will hose down but the final anchor lift is often from the helm. My boat is of shallow draft and can get blown around and I don't want to leave it unattended in a tight anchorage. I also will clean the anchor by backing with it in the water and with the helm chain counter I know where it is and that is all done from the helm. So an anchor that comes up backwards for any reason is a PITA thus the Ultra flip for me it solves a real world problem.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Now, does the twist develop in the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere due to the Coriolis effect or is it a function of angular transmutation? The world needs to know...

Good grief. 177 posts...

 

[Djbangi]

Greetings,
Now, does the twist develop in the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere due to the Coriolis effect or is it a function of angular transmutation? The world needs to know...

Good grief. 177 posts...

Give me a little time and I'll sail up over the equator and find out!

edit - just think - swivel sales are based on this effect close edit

 

[Marin]

I do not know why it rolls or twists.

I believe it is because something unsuported by anything solid--- which is what chain is when it is stretched out in suspension between two points either in the air or in the water--- will try to orient itself to be in balance.

A horizontal, or somewhat horizontal, length of chain is not in balance rotationally when every other link is vertical and the links in between are horizontal. It IS in ballance when all the links are sitting at about a 45 degree angle to the force of gravity. So suspended chain will want to rotate (twist) an eighth of a turn to put all the links at about 45 degrees to the pull of gravity. Add in the other gyrations that a long length of chain is subjected to when being used to pull things or lower things or drag things or whatever, and to me it's pretty easy to see why it ends up rotating around in various directions along its length.

I think this whole discussion of chain twist and swivels and such is massively theoretical. Outside of some really severe conditons, I don't think a swivel has any impact on what chain--- or rope for that matter--- does as a rode is being dragged around by a boat moving about its anchor. Whatever twists and rotations the rode might accumulate are going to come out the moment the anchor lifts free of the bottom and is hanging on the rode, swivel or no swivel.

The only real value I see in using a swivel is in helping the operator orient the anchor correctly to the pulpit roller if the anchor is either too heavy to manhandle into the correct orientation or is too far out of reach or both. But for a "normal" sized boat with a "normal" size anchor, Flywright's earlier descrption of how he deals with his anchor when it comes up is the most logical and simple approach, I think.

The self-orienting swivel that has been illustrated in this thread could probably be a help if one operates their windlass remotely from a helm or if it's not convenient to reach out and orient the anchor by hand from the foredeck. But again, the role the swivel is playing here is simply to orient the anchor for stowage.

As mentioned earlier, we installed a swivel between our all-chain rode and our Bruce anchor. Sometimes the anchor came up more or less oriented to the pulpit, sometimes not. When it didn't, it was an easy thing to re-orient it. Then a year or two later after talking to some of the more experienced anchorers in our boat club and reading Earl Hinz's book, we took the swivel out of the rode. And sometimes the anchor came up more or less oriented to the pulpit and sometimes not.

When we changed to a totally different kind of anchor but retained the same rode fastened to the anchor shank in the same way, guess what happened? Sometimes the anchor comes up more or less oriented to the pulpit and sometimes not.

If it isn't, correcting the orientation takes exactly 3.256984 seconds. So on our master list of Things to Worry About When Boating, rode twist and anchor orientation aren't on it.