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Old 02-04-2015, 03:07 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Makobuilders wrote;
"It's my belief a heavy anchor is more effective that heavy chain."

Thanks for saying so and I firmly believe that to be true also.
You keep saying that Eric, so how do you explain the fact that in test after test as well as countless user testimonials, including my own, the Fortress outperforms almost all other anchors in holding resistance in the bottoms it's best suited for?

Weight is certainly one factor in an anchor's success, but equally important if not more so is design. If this was not true, the Fortress wouldn't work at all. But it does, and better than most.

Your theories tend to overlook a couple of facts.

FACT: A heavy, all-chain rode does a superior job to a nylon rode in helping lower the angle of pull on the anchor which helps the anchor remain set under pressure.

FACT: An anchor does not have to be heavy in order to perform reliably. The Fortress is the proof of this.

As I've stated many, many times, reality trumps theory every single time.
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:06 PM   #82
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Well so I guess I will see this weekend if my new anchor will fit my bow pulpit. I also found that I have 5/16 3B (BBB) chain. Englund Marine in Astoria has the cheapest at $3.17 ft and a barrel is 550 feet. The Admiral told me last night this was my last boat dollar for this month......
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:22 PM   #83
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The Admiral told me last night this was my last boat dollar for this month......
Lucky for you, this is the shortest month. You won't have to wait too long for the next month to reset the spending clock.
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:34 PM   #84
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:48 PM   #85
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Quote:
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Note we can also manually lift with the windlass. Just thought a winch would make it that much easier.
I read with interest the specs on that unit Oliver. It said:

Volts 120
Line Pull (lbs.) 1,000
Run Time 1 min.
Cooling 30 min.
Line Speed (FPM) 13.8
Clutch None

The part that specifically caught my attention is a run time of one minute with a cooling off period of a half hour. I'm not certain how useful sixty seconds is though of course your usage may be different than I imagined for self???

What purpose does it serve? (It is pretty nifty, I'll grant you.)

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Old 02-04-2015, 05:55 PM   #86
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Janice,

The winch will most likely never see a 1000lbs, as we would t be pulling it all up at one time. The only way it'd see a 1k lbs would be if I was breaking the anchor out which is a short pull, all else fails I use the crane.

We've used these winch's in our dredges and have not had a problem. And alien of that lifting was done right at the limit of the weight rating.
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Old 02-04-2015, 06:20 PM   #87
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Good one Scott.

No comment on your "facts" Marin.
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Old 02-04-2015, 07:06 PM   #88
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Morning Peter,
.....because it fit on the boat's bow better than anything else "on the planet" also as Marin says.

.
Actually, I never said that (I don't think). I HAVE said that I believe the Rocna is the best all-around anchor "on the planet."

And the Bruce does fit bow pulpits extremely well but not better than anything else "on the planet" since the CQR fits a bow pulpit just as well if not better.
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Old 02-04-2015, 07:14 PM   #89
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Old 02-04-2015, 07:25 PM   #90
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Somebody asked about no chain. Back about 45-50 years ago on the east coast I and many used Danforth anchors in sand and mud with no windless and no chain or a standard 6 ft length. This worked fine as long as anchor set and no rapid 180 shift. I would think a fortress with 4ft of wire then all rode would work great in sand and mud once set.
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Old 02-04-2015, 08:23 PM   #91
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RTF--- You could start a new thread about the sex life of the Edwardian earthworm and if you managed to include the word "anchor" in it, it would end up being some 600 posts long just like all the other ones. The first post would be about the earthworm and the rest would be about anchors.

In the 27,762.5 posts about anchors on this forum so far, I personally think the ONLY one that has any real validity (besides all of mine, of course), is one Eric Henning made at one point.

I'm paraphrasing, but he said that the chances of the typical recreational boater ever experiencing conditions that would seriously tax whatever anchor setup his/her boat has are minimal.

Based on the efforts most [intelligent] recreational boaters go to to avoid being put in dangerous situations, I believe Eric's statement is right on the money. Which means that as long as a boater selects an anchor with a proven track record, the chances are it's going to do just fine almost all the time.

There will be exceptions, of course, like our experience with the Bruce we used to have. But whether one chooses a Rocna, a Manson, a Sarca, a Bruce/Claw, a Danforth/Fortress, a CQR, a Spade, etc., the chances are very high that the boater will never have a real problem.

Sure, they may have to make a couple of tries every now and then to get the anchor to set properly in a squirrely bottom. (It would have been interesting to see how the results of Fortress' mushy mud test would have differed had the anchors that didn't set or didn't set well in the test had been tried again, or tried again using a different setting technique, or tried again in a slightly different place.)

So I agree with Eric, and I think that for the most part the thousands of posts about this, that, or the other anchor and this, that, or the other rode are mostly armchair theorizing and opinionating. Which is loads of fun to do but can be confusing as hell to the poor schmuck who's trying to figure out what to put on the bow of his boat.

So the bottom line for him is, I think, that in recreational boating's real world-- which is the only one that counts--- all of the proven designs seem to work just fine 99 percent of the time if they are used intelligently.

'Intelligently," by the way, includes taking into account the conditions under which the anchor will be used and selecting one that has been proven to do well in those conditions.
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Old 02-04-2015, 09:24 PM   #92
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Marin and Eric I agree and since this PO asked about chain and rode I think the same reasoning about the real world anchoring applies. It matters not chain or rode just so long as intelligently used. If people feel more secure with 400 ft of chain fine but there are others who do well without all that chain actually except for chafe can do with no chain a 10 ft piece of wire would do fine.
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Old 02-04-2015, 09:56 PM   #93
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Thanks for the nice words Marin. I have this idea that our differences (re anchors) may be rooted in the fact that usually I think I'm talking about anchors for the fun of it. What if we changed this or that. What design features promote what kind of performance ect ect. But you and most others are trying to plug in "real world" facts (frequently presumed) and placing heavy importance on what anchor is best or what we should be using. The idea that only a "modern" anchor should be used and it's stupid to use anything else is disgusting to me and I tend to fight that when it pops up .... and it pops often. Our culture worships the latest things and what's popular to the extent that most objectivity is lost and most people have this burning NEED to be on the bandwagon w the coolest and latest things from how to talk .... remember "far out"? And how often do you hear "AWSOME"?

I think we should strive for clear thinking and objectivity ... especially in our boating decisions.

And yes I did say those things Marin. That almost always anchoring goes well. And the reason for it is that we only very seldom have the misfortune to put our ground tackle to a real test. I can count on one hand the number of times I've anchored in winds over 40knots or about 45mph. So this anchoring isn't all that important unless you get very unlucky.

I'll bet most of us have learned a great deal about anchoring and the gear on TF. I know I have. I find it very interesting and tend to spill my brains on it and seek others to do the same. I'm a "P" type personalty ... preferring things undecided leaving "possibilities" whereas probably most are "J" types that like things decided .. and aren't happy until that comes to pass.
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:02 PM   #94
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Marin and Eric I agree and since this PO asked about chain and rode I think the same reasoning about the real world anchoring applies. It matters not chain or rode just so long as intelligently used. If people feel more secure with 400 ft of chain fine but there are others who do well without all that chain actually except for chafe can do with no chain a 10 ft piece of wire would do fine.
Yes I strongly suspect that once the anchor is set it really dosn't matter if the rode's chain or line. The only reason for chain over line seems to be the benifits of catenary. And in a strong blow the catenary is gone from the chain and of course the line rode.
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Old 02-05-2015, 03:15 AM   #95
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Yes I strongly suspect that once the anchor is set it really dosn't matter if the rode's chain or line. The only reason for chain over line seems to be the benifits of catenary. And in a strong blow the catenary is gone from the chain and of course the line rode.
.+1 A great summary

Many people have a hard time believing the catenary effectively disappears in stronger wind, so hopefully a picture will help.

This is a photo of a 15kg Rocna being set by a 34 foot sailboat. The force of the engine alone is enough to practically eliminate all the catanery as you can see. It was in 17 feet of water the scope was 4:1 and it was 8mm chain.

Sailboat engines are only small (this one was 27 HP) and with the engine run at 2500 rpm the force is the equivalent of about 25-30 knots of wind.

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Old 02-05-2015, 06:08 AM   #96
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.+1 A great summary

Many people have a hard time believing the catenary effectively disappears in stronger wind, so hopefully a picture will help.

This is a photo of a 15kg Rocna being set by a 34 foot sailboat. The force of the engine alone is enough to practically eliminate all the catanery as you can see. It was in 17 feet of water the scope was 4:1 and it was 8mm chain.

Sailboat engines are only small (this one was 27 HP) and with the engine run at 2500 rpm the force is the equivalent of about 25-30 knots of wind.

It might be a more interesting image than simply showing the lack of catenary.

If you look carefully you will see that the chain is twisted. This is an anchor that is being set, so its been deployed and loaded (by the 27hp engine). There is no obvious reason why the chain should be twisted.

I stand to be corrected but I think the owner of this yacht had been using a swivel (when the image was taken) which might suggests swivels do not work. But why is the chain twisted in the first place, swivel or not. But there is also a 'lot' of twist.

The chain is deployed through the gypsy/wildcat/chain wheel and I cannot see this causing a twist, maybe the bow roller itself? the anchor acts in some hydrodynamic manner and rotates? The phenomena is not unusual.

I have no ideas - just the question.

edit - further, if anyone agrees that there seems to be a 'lot' of twist for a newly deployed anchor then the suggestion is that swivels are unnecessary as this anchor appears to be setting without that twist having any impact at all. close edit
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Old 02-05-2015, 06:45 AM   #97
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The usual rule of thumb is a good prop will create 20lbs of thrust .

A 27 hp engine in reverse will not get that number as props are picked for the vessels normal cruise speed ,

Not for static bollard pull in reverse..

At best the photo shows 500 lbs of pull , and of course the chain is bar tight at the same angle all nylon line would be.

The difference is in a blow , where if not over sized,, the nylon can stretch 10% or more , easing the load on the anchor.

Chain just gets bar tight and transmits any shock load directly to the anchor, as a steel cable would.
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Old 02-05-2015, 09:47 AM   #98
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If you look carefully you will see that the chain is twisted. This is an anchor that is being set, so its been deployed and loaded (by the 27hp engine). There is no obvious reason why the chain should be twisted.

Yes good observation.

The chain often appears twisted when I see anchors underwater, even if the anchor is recently deployed. I have not noticed any correlation between the presence or absence of a swivel, but I will look more closely in future.

The photo below shows a Kobra anchor (one of the convex plow anchors) that I was watching change direction with a 180 degree shift in light wind. You can see at this stage the anchor has not moved, but the chain is leading back in the opposite direction.

The real reason for including the photo is that it shows a long length of chain and, as you can see, it appears twisted. You can also see the catenary that is present in light or light/moderate wind. It is a pity this is lost in stronger wind when it is really needed.

I am reasonably sure the Rocna in my previous post did not have a swivel and this Kobra did. The Rocna had only just been dropped and I think from memory the boat with the Kobra had been anchored for about 24 hours.



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Old 02-05-2015, 10:06 AM   #99
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Interesting mystery. Just a thought ... perhaps many other anchors rotate through the water like a maple leaf as they descend. It's common knowledge that the Danforth types do but I thought it was limited to them as I've not heard any talk of others doing the rotation fall. Anyone seen that happen ... in clear water perhaps?

Also in that soft sand you'd think the anchors would be deeper in the sand. Both of the shanks are still visible. One would be inclined to belive in a harder bottom even less penetration would result. I've seen the Kobra in European anchor tests and it performs very well there.
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Old 02-05-2015, 10:33 AM   #100
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I'm really pleased with my Rocna which replaced a smaller genuine Bruce. Over the last three summers of anchoring in SE Alaska, it self-launches, sets quickly, holds like crazy, and resets without complaint when the wind shifts.

All terrific, with one exception: I never had significant chain twisting with the Bruce, and now I do with the Rocna. Maybe the Rocna, having bigger fluke area, and maybe being built very slightly asymetrical or welded just the tiniest bit crooked (??) just does that.

Enough so that last year I added an apparently robust Suncor SS swivel. It helps quite a bit, but does not totally get rid of the twisting.
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