Anchor rode question.....again

[Marin]

A long rode has a lot of merrit in Alaska.

Side note:
It's interesting Rocna is now building anchors W/O roll bars and Spade just introduced 2 anchors in their line WITH roll bars. It seems I'm not the only one in doubt.

We've coverd this a lot before, Eric. The non-rollbar Rocna was introduced because a large segment of the anchor market is boats with pulpits that will not accept a rollbar anchor. Like Bayliners for example, with their slotted pulpits. The non-rollbar anchor from Rocna is an attempt to capture some of that market.

This has been stated clearly by Rocna and they also say the rollbar anchor remains their optimum design. The non-rollbar anchor is not a departure from their belief in the rollbar design as much as you would like to believe that it is. It is Canadian Metals/Rocna being smart and creating a product they they hope will help them capture a larger market share.

This doesn't mean their spade-type anchor isn't a good design. But it has not supplanted the rollbar Rocna.

 

[N4712]

I bought one with a roll bar? Are there concerns?

You won't have problems with your Rocna.

 

[Marin]

I bought one with a roll bar? Are there concerns?

Read my post #61. You bought the correct Rocna. The non-rollbar Rocna is a marketing excercise. It may be a very good anchor, but the one you bought will be better because of the rollbar.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

OK, but base on Marin's comments, I hope it fits my bow pulpit. I guess we will see....

 

[Marin]

OK, but base on Marin's comments, I hope it fits my bow pulpit. I guess we will see....

If you have a slotted pulpit, it won't because the rollbar will contact the underside of the pulpit and prevent the anchor from being fully "retracted." Doesn't mean you can't use it, it just won't be a clean installation.

The Rocna was designed to be a self-launching anchor from a "conventional" pulpt or bow roller.

The other obstacle to a Rocna fitting nicely on a pulpit is a bail or keeper at the end of the pulpit that is too short to provide the necessary clearance under it for the Rocna's fairly deep shank near the fluke. While I measured things prior to our buying a Rocna 20 some seven or eight years ago, and Rocna sent me the full dimension sheet for the Model 20, it turned out our bail was just a wee bit too short. The anchor came all the way back to the roller but the bail prevented the rode end of the shank from lying down in the pulpit channel as illustrated in the photo below that I took.

Eventually I decided to do something about it so we fabricated a new, taller bail. Now our Rocna sits with the rode end of the shank down in the pulpit channel although it will still depart the pulpit as soon as the rode is slacked off, which is what it's designed to do.

So for us it's a brilliant design and has so far served us flawlessly in every anchoring situation we have encountered. We get the same story from everyone we've met who has one, including the couple whose 45' sloop shares our finger float and who dealt with some horrendous anchoring situations in the open exposed anchorages in the sothwest Pacific that had every other boat dragging like a snake's tail.

 

[dwhatty]

We have a slotted pulpit and didn't think a Rocna 20 would fit. But I downloaded a template (thank you Rocna for that) off Rocna's site, made full size a mockup of its profile out of doorskin and tried it on the boat. Wonder of wonders, it seemed to fit. Bought the anchor, installed it and it pulled up not quite perfectly, but acceptably, on the roller in the slot with the hoop coming up tight (once a sacrificial pad was added) against the front edge of the pulpit. You can just see it in these pics.

 

[Marin]

David--- That's a pretty good setup. Plus it looks like a dual roller arrangement with the port roller out on an extension. So I'm guessing the Rocna would have fit on that just fine?

As you know, the pulpits that have the problem are the ones that have quite a bit of platform extending forward of the slots. I believe most Bayliner slotted pulpits are like this. There are a couple of Bayliners I've seen in our marina which have been switched to Rocnas and on them, the rollbar is hard up against the underside of the pulpit. Makes for a bit of an awkward looking setup although functionally it would seem to be okay.

The bottom line, of course, is that it's better to have a Rocna in a less-than-ideal stowage setup than not have a Rocna at all.

I take it that's your bazilion horsepower MG next to the boat there?

 

[eyschulman]

dwhatty your anchor and roller look good. Now that you have an anchor that might dig in and be hard to pull out I will give you a little of my experience. Don't put to much pressure on that bowsprit. If the anchor is stuck and you think it must be powered out tie a snubber line on the chain to a cleat bypassing the sprit and unload the chain then power out. Not that I recommend powering an anchor out but sometimes.

 

[FlyWright]

It looks to me like there's a steel support under the pulpit that ties into the bow structure beneath the pulpit on dwhatty's boat. If so, that's a pretty stout setup! Either way, there's not a whole lot of leverage on that pulpit as the roller appears to be within about a foot of the hull.

On the other hand, my setup has quite a bit of arm in the equation to give quite a bending/breaking moment during a power retrieval and it's not supported from below like David's. The self-launching anchor roller will probably fail before the pulpit does, though. It's something I need to be careful about, but seldom need to power forward very much to retrieve my trusty claw. It normally releases quite easily from directly above.

 

[BruceK]

It looks to me like there's a steel support under the pulpit that ties into the bow structure beneath the pulpit on dwhatty's boat.

My IG is much older than David`s, but when I had the anchor windlass pedestal rebuilt, there was a substantial full length metal plate,maybe 3/8, which I suspect had near zero flex, under the teak platform. Not rusted so I `d say it was s/steel or maybe duralium ( hard aluminum we used for skid plates under rally cars to protect sumps and transmissions).

 

[Peter B]

I bought one with a roll bar? Are there concerns?

No real concerns A-Sea-D, but just that like Sarca developed the Excel, Rocna have also come out with one sans roll bar, because the lack of roll bar means it fits the modern slotted pulpit found on so many boats now much better, where the roll bar would tend to get in the way. More cosmetic than any real alteration in function or performance. On same note, Rocna and some others are now also including a tripping slot like my original Super Sarca, so what goes round, comes round, eh.


Now we'll probably get a lecture on how the roll bar prevents maximum penetration from Eric, and one from Marin re the dangers of the slot tripping when it is not wanted. Pish tosh, I say in advance.

PS, Sorry Marin, I missed the post where you reassured ASD along the same lines, but hey, the good thing is we both can't be wrong, surely. So he's now doubly reassured...

 

[Nomad Willy]

Morning Peter,
You wrote;
"Now we'll probably get a lecture on how the roll bar prevents maximum penetration from Eric, and one from Marin re the dangers of the slot tripping when it is not wanted. Pish tosh, I say in advance. " ........

Looks like you remember well Peter. I still haven't cut the roll bar off of my Supreme .. but I will. But unlike the other chap that did I have other plans that will prevent the anchor from moving along the bottom or even being on the bottom upside down. The way I lay out my anchors failing to set problaly not happen at all compared to the other guy's 95% of the time. But it's an addition to the anchor and in that way like the roll bar so I'll try to avoid doing that.

The roll bar is like all chain ...... it works fairly well but it's not ideal.

Too bad when our anchors need to be compromised in design re performance so they fit conveniently on the boat. But now as I say that I think of the Bruce that has ho hum performance but was bought in "bezillions" (as Marin says) because it fit on the boat's bow better than anything else "on the planet" also as Marin says.

Now I know what "pish tosh" means. I spared you Peter as this is a comment not a lecture.

 

[ksanders]

It looks to me like there's a steel support under the pulpit that ties into the bow structure beneath the pulpit on dwhatty's boat. If so, that's a pretty stout setup! Either way, there's not a whole lot of leverage on that pulpit as the roller appears to be within about a foot of the hull.

On the other hand, my setup has quite a bit of arm in the equation to give quite a bending/breaking moment during a power retrieval and it's not supported from below like David's. The self-launching anchor roller will probably fail before the pulpit does, though. It's something I need to be careful about, but seldom need to power forward very much to retrieve my trusty claw. It normally releases quite easily from directly above.

Al

I cannot believe you are still using an old fashioned Bruce style anchor!

Shocked actually! Don't you listen to all the proof here on TF that if you use a Bruce style anchor you're boat will end up on shore in a light breeze?

Shame...shame...shame..

BTW, my 550' of anchor chain and new windlass was picked up at defender yesterday.

After I connect it all up, and get MY Bruce style anchor hooked to it I'll be on shore with you after my anchor fails to function.

 

[Marin]

NOn same note, Rocna and some others are now also including a tripping slot like my original Super Sarca, so what goes round, comes round, eh.

The little Rocnas with the slotted shank are for fishermen and the like who anchor several times in the course of a day and also often anchor over foul ground-- reefs, rocks, kelp, etc.-- because that's where fish tend to be. So the slot can help them (the fishermen, not the fish) back the anchor out if necessary. So said Rocna when they introduced this line of smaller anchors.

It's a smart product and if the day comes when we want to anchor to fish with our Arima, we'll get a little slotted Rocna for the boat. However all our fishing is either drifting for halibut and ling cod or trolling for salmon. In the 28 years we've had our Arima we've used the anchor that came with it (a small Danforth) exactly twice, once over a wreck so a friend could dive on it and once on a lake to fish.

 

[FlyWright]

Al

I cannot believe you are still using an old fashioned Bruce style anchor!

Shocked actually! Don't you listen to all the proof here on TF that if you use a Bruce style anchor you're boat will end up on shore in a light breeze?

Shame...shame...shame..

BTW, my 550' of anchor chain and new windlass was picked up at defender yesterday.

After I connect it all up, and get MY Bruce style anchor hooked to it I'll be on shore with you after my anchor fails to function.

Great! We can have a shore lunch!

 

[sunchaser]

Great! We can have a shore lunch!

Look forward to joining you and Kevin, but I may not drag all the way too shore because my stubborn Bruce just keeps hanging on.

 

[ksanders]

Look forward to joining you and Kevin, but I may not drag all the way too shore because my stubborn Bruce just keeps hanging on.

Wasn't there a recall on those?

I think other people must have more difficult anchoring conditions. Where I anchor I only change direction of pull by 180 degrees four times a day, requiring a reset. Perhaps its because I only anchor in water over a hundred feet deep. Yes, that's it.

 

[Mako]

Has anybody had any experience w using no chain at all? I haven't tried that.

I anchor in areas of sharp limestone and switched to 2 metres of chain followed by polyprop anchor line to keep it off the bottom. Works great except when the beach gets crowded and boats start running over my floating rode. Have to watch out for wear and chafe of course. The poly is also very light and doesn't absorb water, which is great since I don't have a windlass. However, I've put all the weight saved from chain into the anchor, which is twice the normal working weight.

It's my belief that a heavy anchor is more effective than a heavy chain.

When I go diving I'm always coming across long lengths of discarded nylon anchor rode wrapped all over the rocks. Obviously they had to just cut the line because they couldn't free it.

The only hassle is the splice of the rope to chain.
I've watched several videos on it, but I'm not sure I'd trust my splice.

I've been using a rope to chain splice over 7 or 8 links and it's the preferred method over either a single link splice (horrible - you lose half your line strength) or even a thimble (very large). The one mod I made was to wrap some leather around the spliced area to reduce chafing on the bottom.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Makobuilders wrote;
"It's my belief a heavy anchor is more effective that heavy chain."

Thanks for saying so and I firmly believe that to be true also.


Marin,
Re the guy w the Mamson supreme. I always use the slot but put in a bolt just aft of the shackle to prevent the slot from coming into play. Wish I had some good re-set stories but I think most anchors do well at that. In a situation as you described above I would think if the anchor set in the forst place it should set again unless the first set was a lucky fluke. And that's not likely. I have about 6 anchors. I've not kept any anchor that had setting problems. That's just unacceptable. I think Manson should provide a standard slotless shank for anchors shipped to northern waters. Would be lighter or stronger or both.

I have planned 3 modifications to my Supreme and will post as the project evolves. Probably won't start till late spring but that's a busy time too.

 

[psneeld]

Heavy anchor versus heavy chain?

What say Fortress?

 

[Marin]

Makobuilders wrote;
"It's my belief a heavy anchor is more effective that heavy chain."

Thanks for saying so and I firmly believe that to be true also.

You keep saying that Eric, so how do you explain the fact that in test after test as well as countless user testimonials, including my own, the Fortress outperforms almost all other anchors in holding resistance in the bottoms it's best suited for?

Weight is certainly one factor in an anchor's success, but equally important if not more so is design. If this was not true, the Fortress wouldn't work at all. But it does, and better than most.

Your theories tend to overlook a couple of facts.

FACT: A heavy, all-chain rode does a superior job to a nylon rode in helping lower the angle of pull on the anchor which helps the anchor remain set under pressure.

FACT: An anchor does not have to be heavy in order to perform reliably. The Fortress is the proof of this.

As I've stated many, many times, reality trumps theory every single time.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Well so I guess I will see this weekend if my new anchor will fit my bow pulpit. I also found that I have 5/16 3B (BBB) chain. Englund Marine in Astoria has the cheapest at $3.17 ft and a barrel is 550 feet. The Admiral told me last night this was my last boat dollar for this month......

 

[FlyWright]

The Admiral told me last night this was my last boat dollar for this month......

Lucky for you, this is the shortest month. You won't have to wait too long for the next month to reset the spending clock.

 

[Giggitoni]

...no leap year either!

 

[janice142]

Note we can also manually lift with the windlass. Just thought a winch would make it that much easier.

I read with interest the specs on that unit Oliver. It said:

Volts 120
Line Pull (lbs.) 1,000
Run Time 1 min.
Cooling 30 min.
Line Speed (FPM) 13.8
Clutch None

The part that specifically caught my attention is a run time of one minute with a cooling off period of a half hour. I'm not certain how useful sixty seconds is though of course your usage may be different than I imagined for self???

What purpose does it serve? (It is pretty nifty, I'll grant you.)

Signed,

Gizmo-holic with a side of tool-itis.

 

[N4712]

Janice,

The winch will most likely never see a 1000lbs, as we would t be pulling it all up at one time. The only way it'd see a 1k lbs would be if I was breaking the anchor out which is a short pull, all else fails I use the crane.

We've used these winch's in our dredges and have not had a problem. And alien of that lifting was done right at the limit of the weight rating.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Good one Scott.

No comment on your "facts" Marin.

 

[Marin]

Morning Peter,
.....because it fit on the boat's bow better than anything else "on the planet" also as Marin says.

.

Actually, I never said that (I don't think). I HAVE said that I believe the Rocna is the best all-around anchor "on the planet."

And the Bruce does fit bow pulpits extremely well but not better than anything else "on the planet" since the CQR fits a bow pulpit just as well if not better.

 

[RT Firefly]

 

[eyschulman]

Somebody asked about no chain. Back about 45-50 years ago on the east coast I and many used Danforth anchors in sand and mud with no windless and no chain or a standard 6 ft length. This worked fine as long as anchor set and no rapid 180 shift. I would think a fortress with 4ft of wire then all rode would work great in sand and mud once set.