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Old 03-12-2015, 04:43 PM   #201
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When anchors freefall (not powered out) it is certainly possible that they can 'jump' a link over the grooved roller. If being on the hook for many tide cycles or wind shifts, having multiple twists in the chain it can pop up over the roller on the way in too. This is especially prevalent when you have tension on the chain, and either slack or increase the strain as the links pass over the roller. BTDT.
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Old 03-12-2015, 05:04 PM   #202
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Yes indeed.
Having never let an anchor free fall (must sound like a trainwreck in chain) I never thought of that ... but of course. I always lower my anchors and rode using my gloved hands as a brake. Usually I can feel the but end of the anchor bump the bottom. I then take out the snack and when sternway is calling for more line I pay it out as needed so my anchors are right side up or on their side depending on design.

Winches powering down shouldn't have trouble w the chain jumping out of the bow roller grove ... should they? Then the chain and anchor should come up as it went down. I would think this free fall payout would dramatically increase the chances of the chain tying itself in a knot and .. whang! Hate to think of it.
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Old 03-12-2015, 09:46 PM   #203
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Does anyone use all line anchor rode? Yes Eric we do on our boat in the Philippines. We used to use a short piece of chain but the chain I get here rusts so BAD I don't use chain unless I know we are in corals.
In the past all we had where home made fisherman anchors 3 of them, that weigh maybe
50 pounds for the smaller ones and 60 pounds for the heavier one. I'm just guessing at the weights could be plus or minus 10 pounds. We know just this year have a Fortress FX-37. Man does it stick in the mud. We always set out at least two anchors and if I expect a big blow three anchors. No windless, my crew does it all by hand, which is how the ever have done it. The rode are poly 1 inch and 1 1/4 inch. My crew likes some meat to get their hands on. Mostly because of sun UV they don't last long and one reason I like two anchors out, in case one rode fails. Just 15 minutes ago I noticed some of the 1 1/4 line is in bad shape, it is maybe 5 or 6 years old. I will retire it now. Very hard to get nylon rode here and in anything but 3/4 inch. All the fisherman use this cheap poly line. It floats and I think a help in my anchor rodes not tangling. However floating on the surface it will get run over and why we put small floats on it to make it more visible. I see 100 ton plus boats using this same poly line. In the store I ask for nylon line and they show me poly and they think it is nylon. Nylon line here is pretty rare.
We have survived two typhoons and one 50 knot blow at anchor, but we where in a place where the waves couldn't get more then 3 feet high and usually much less. We where in lee of the near shore.
Our situation is for most of you pretty unique and in summary it is just what we found works for us or at least so far and I sure like the new Fortress in mud and the weight to use as a kedge. My guys have no problem swimming out a 60 pound anchor tied to one or two 5 gallon floats. I had a guy once swim out a 40 pound anchor without any float and swam around close to 100 meters. He mostly swam under water and when he returned he indicated he was tired and said he had to switch hands.
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Old 03-12-2015, 11:25 PM   #204
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Freshalaska,
Yes I need to change hands too at times.
Great post .. Loved it.
I was born in Juneau and worked the ferries in the 70s. Skagway was the end of the line so spent some time there. Saw so much foul weather in Lynn Canal (The Big Lynn) that I never did venture up there in a small boat. Did Gustavus and got lost up in the Bay (that wasn't a park at that time) arguing about which way to hold/view a chart (map to them). I was arguing with women and got lost. I know I was lost because I went the opposite way (the way they said to go) and eventially got to Bartlet Cove. The girls went home to Juneau on the plane and I went wonderfully/quietly home to Juneau as well.

We had a boater here on Trawler Forum from the western Pacific that made interesting posts .. can't remember his name. He was putting together a South Pacific trawler that was sort of a Sampan of some sort. His posts were a breath of fresh air and a bit of an adventure as well.

In my ex-wife's family one of her brothers lives mostly in the Philipines but is from Juneau. Married a Philipine girl and lives about 8 months in the islands where they have a hotel. I'd say welcome aboard but I see you've got 57 posts. Glad you're here.
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Old 03-13-2015, 12:26 AM   #205
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The rode are poly 1 inch and 1 1/4 inch.
Very hard to get nylon rode here and in anything but 3/4 inch. All the fisherman use this cheap poly line. It floats and I think a help in my anchor rodes not tangling. However floating on the surface it will get run over and why we put small floats on it to make it more visible. I see 100 ton plus boats using this same poly line. In the store I ask for nylon line and they show me poly and they think it is nylon. Nylon line here is pretty rare.
Similar situation here in Qatar. Most of the small marine stores here will give you cotton rope when you ask for nylon or just plain poly. 99% of the boaters here are fishermen, not pleasure boaters, and they all use poly for everything. Yes can get true nylon but you have to search.

I prefer poly anyway because it floats the line off the hard, sharp limestone rocks on the bottom. I use a very heavy anchor and a couple meters of heavy chain just to keep the line pull relatively horizontal. Never had a problem. When chafe or sun eats the line then I cut that section out or buy some new line. Cheap stuff here.
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:04 AM   #206
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"Does anyone use all line anchor rode? Yes Eric we do on our boat in the Philippines. We used to use a short piece of chain but the chain I get here rusts so BAD I don't use chain unless I know we are in corals."

The Danforth was used most of WWII with just line shakeled to the anchor no chain.

We only use a couple of ft. of chain that fits between the anchor and capstan , so a chain stopper can hold the anchor secure while underway.

Unless in coral, I dont think the chain would be missed at all, assuming the anchor is right sized and does not rely on the chain for added weight.
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Old 03-13-2015, 09:15 AM   #207
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Even as I put those cable ties on, (as a temporary arrangement until I get some more stainless wire), I had a chuckle, and thought to myself, "when I put this pic up it will draw all sorts of comment

Actually, while my D-shackle, ( I think of them as U-shackles), is a bit longer in the U than strictly necessary, it does work exceptionally well. ...
Peter

Does the D shackle have an equal or higher WLL limit than the chain? I prefer rated lifting alloy shackles for this application. Back to the chain is only as strong as its weakest link point Dbjangi made.

My Ultra swivel bent so two years ago I replaced it with a rated alloy shackle - amazingly no bad twisting issues arose in the all chain rode and easy enough to pull it onboard without the swivel.
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Old 03-13-2015, 12:10 PM   #208
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Do you have a grooved bow roller Tom?

FF wrote "The Danforth was used most of WWII with just line shakeled to the anchor no chain." Used by whom? Most everybody?
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:45 PM   #209
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Re FFs post #206.

Well if chain isn't't necessary why are all these guys using chain?

Does it grow hair on one's chest" Attract women? Give automatic guru status? Membership in the Old Salt Club? I think skippers think it helps the anchor hold the boat. I do but the question never asked is to what degree the chain increases the performance of the anchor. Would a 10lb increase in anchor weight make up for 100lbs of chain? There hasn't been much response to the question I posted asking if anyone anchored w/o chain. I know many like me use very little chain and seem not to suffer from the lack of it. I think there are tests or performance reports that indicate chain is very important to anchor performance. Perhaps it has to do w short scope performance of numerous anchors. Chainless anchoring may only be practical w anchors that are good w short scope rodes.

But the real reason for the high popularity of chain has mostly to do with deploying and retrieving the anchor and rode. IMO. For vessels over about 30' line handling becomes difficult. Saltiness and the old man of the sea image must play a part to as one seems to have higher nautical social standing as the skipper of a trawler over a cruiser. Many over the years here have tried to attain the image status both for themselves and their boats as being trawlers when they clearly were not. The main difference between a trawler and other boats is their mass .. or weight. They are heavy. Heavier than others and the boats and their skippers are considered to more knowledgable about boats and the sea. Could this be the real reason lots of trawler skippers seem quite proud of their "all chain rode". Even has a bit of a ring to it.

Regarding all line rodes do the gypsie style combination winches today have the capability to handle all line rodes over many years? Are there any winches designed to handle line only .. other than reel winches?

FreshAlaska uses polypropylene line for anchoring. I see a possible significant advantage to poly w an all line anchoring. It may keep the line off of the bottom enough to promote it's use over nylon. A clean rode is golden. Perhaps 20' of nylon and the rest poly could be the rode of the future?
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:58 PM   #210
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If one doesn't have a windlass, the best bet is to have a combination rope-and-chain rode, assuming one is comfortable with retrieving the anchor by hand, and if not, one needs a windlass. On one's primary anchor, I'd go with a chain the length of the boat. My primary anchor rode is all chain, as I've a windlass and don't anchor in deep depths.
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Old 03-13-2015, 09:14 PM   #211
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Re FFs post #206.


But the real reason for the high popularity of chain has mostly to do with deploying and retrieving the anchor and rode. IMO.
That's certainly a benefit but I've never heard or read of that being given as the main reason for chain.

Over the years--- even way back when we bought our 17' Arima and the dealer answered our "what kind of anchor should we get" question----the reason given to use a length of chain between the anchor and the line in a combination rode is to prevent chafing, wear, fraying and eventual parting of the line against the bottom as the boat moves around.

So how much chain? The answer I've always seen or heard is "use the same amount of chain as the boat is long." I don't know that there's any scientific reason for this, but it's an easy formula for everybody to remember.

The other advantage of a length of chain between the anchor and the line rode is that it's weight will help lower the angle of pull on the anchor as we have discussed in this thread previously.

I'm sure if one had a heavy-enough anchor one could dispense with the chain altogether as far as any concern about the angle of pull is concerned. But the issue of abrading and fraying the rode against the bottom as the boat moves around remains.

So one would want enough chain that, as the boat moved around, even without much pull on it the pull would be enough to pick up the end of the chain so the only thing dragging around on the bottom is the chain.

If you mean the high popularity of an all-chain rode, the ease of deployment and recovery using a powered windlass is certainly a nice benefit. But as I've stated earlier in the discussion, we elected to use all-chain because it helps the anchor stay put. If we thought a combination rode was the better way to go, we could use it with no problem. Our windlass has a line gypsy and we could pull (or let out under power) a long rope rode as easily as an all-chain rode other than I'd have to be involved with the process by tailing the windlass.
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Old 03-13-2015, 10:37 PM   #212
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Hi Marin,
Your post above apparently dismisses the thought of using no chain as the third paragraph begins w "So how much chain?". As if paragraph #2 explains that .. it dosn't. It only states what we've done. Are you assuming that that is correct? It appears so. I've had my nylon rode for quite a number of years w/o even turning it around. A bit stained is all that seems to be wrong w my rode. To replace small sections of it at times would be easy and inexpensive.

In your paragraph #5 you submit that increasing the anchor weight to make up for the catenary advantage seemingly would work (as I've said for years) but then dismiss it because of the assumed abrasion issue. I don't think the abrasion issue is worth talking about. Ask FF how long his line lasts .. how much it costs and how easy it is to handle.

I suspect we're doing a lot of stuff .... just because. That's how women tend to explain things they don't understand.
Anchor manufacturers recommend chain because it is commonly thought to be the most secure way to get the job done. Why take a chance? The lawers are waiting for someone to screw up.
And if you're new to boating .. again .. why take a chance?
It looks like nobody really knows and most everybody is hiding behind chain knowing that's probably the path of least resistance and a minimal chance for doing wrong or giving bad advice.

I may choose all or 30% chain over all line to keep my boat from stinking due to too much organic stuff on the line. Chain has the advantage there dosn't it?

I'm still on the edge of having a 14lb anchor w high enough performance and practically no chain so I could easily hand pull my rode. Smile.
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Old 03-14-2015, 01:08 AM   #213
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Eric, Forgive me for coming on strong, but I've been sitting on the sidelines for a while watching you advise the unadvisable and just have to speak up in the hopes that someone doesn't get hurt or worse.

Quote:
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Well if chain isn't't necessary why are all these guys using chain?

I think skippers think it helps the anchor hold the boat. I do but the question never asked is to what degree the chain increases the performance of the anchor. Would a 10lb increase in anchor weight make up for 100lbs of chain?
You assess the issue from the narrowed perspective of a guy who doesn't have a windlass capable of lifting chain, so you have a natural bias against it. You can't lift it so you want to rationalize the fact that you don't have it.

Show me ONE anchor manufacturer who states his anchor performance is not improved by chain and I'll start listening to your insistence that it doesn't matter.

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There hasn't been much response to the question I posted asking if anyone anchored w/o chain. I know many like me use very little chain and seem not to suffer from the lack of it. I think there are tests or performance reports that indicate chain is very important to anchor performance. Perhaps it has to do w short scope performance of numerous anchors. Chainless anchoring may only be practical w anchors that are good w short scope rodes.

But the real reason for the high popularity of chain has mostly to do with deploying and retrieving the anchor and rode. IMO. For vessels over about 30' line handling becomes difficult.
Folks with proper terminal tackle equipment and capable windlasses want gear that is safe and easily deployed and retrieved. Chain allows that. Who else recommends chainless anchoring? No one with any anchoring credibility that I know.


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FreshAlaska uses polypropylene line for anchoring. I see a possible significant advantage to poly w an all line anchoring. It may keep the line off of the bottom enough to promote it's use over nylon. A clean rode is golden. Perhaps 20' of nylon and the rest poly could be the rode of the future?
Poly line is very susceptible to UV deterioration. It has poor wear resistance. Those are not characteristics I'd want in my anchor rode. How many anchor manufacturers are recommending poly line as a well-suited anchor rode?

I get the feeling you want to argue established facts regarding anchoring knowledge just for the sake of argument. If you want to use the lightest of gear and cheapest of ropes as your rode and shun the collective knowledge of anchoring experts, well, it's your boat and your choice. Personally, I think it's foolish and unsafe. But I don't think it's a public service to those who come here for anchoring advice and shared wisdom to hear your latest anchor theory du jour presented by you as proven fact. It just ain't so!

You might be getting away with using marginal equipment in benign conditions, but if others adopt this as accepted practices, someone's likely to get hurt. I know everyone needs to take their internet advice with a grain of salt, but you might consider posting a warning on your posts that sing the praise of using lightweight gear on substandard rodes that these are your opinions alone and are not shared by anchoring professionals or other trawler operators.

I sincerely hope anyone reading this in the quest for anchoring knowledge will study accepted guidelines and advice provided by widely accepted sources such as Chapman's. Find what works for your conditions plus the unexpected curves that nature inevitably throws your way.
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Old 03-14-2015, 06:34 AM   #214
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Peter

Does the D shackle have an equal or higher WLL limit than the chain? I prefer rated lifting alloy shackles for this application. Back to the chain is only as strong as its weakest link point Dbjangi made.

My Ultra swivel bent so two years ago I replaced it with a rated alloy shackle - amazingly no bad twisting issues arose in the all chain rode and easy enough to pull it onboard without the swivel.
Sun, I can't remember what the rating for that long D, (which is why I call it a U), shackle is, but it is way heavier grade in weight and diameter than the chain attached to it, so I have no worries there.
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Old 03-14-2015, 06:56 AM   #215
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Quote:
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Does anyone use all line anchor rode? Yes Eric we do on our boat in the Philippines. We used to use a short piece of chain but the chain I get here rusts so BAD I don't use chain unless I know we are in corals…...We always set out at least two anchors and if I expect a big blow three anchors. No windless, my crew does it all by hand, which is how the ever have done it. The rode are poly 1 inch and 1 1/4 inch. My crew likes some meat to get their hands on. Mostly because of sun UV they don't last long and one reason I like two anchors out, in case one rode fails.
Freshalaska, reading your post I shuddered, when I thought of the hassle of putting out 2 or 3 anchors nearly every time and then manhandling them back aboard, especially with 50' boat. I take your point re the chain quality you might get locally, but it's hard to believe you could not get quality anchor type and rated chain imported, even by special order, and if I was you, and could possibly afford it, (and let's face it, renewing the poly rope all the time must get quite expensive), I would get some quality chain somehow, (make a trip to Aussie or NZ personally to get it if necessary), a suitable powered winch, and a Super Sarca anchor, and Bob's your uncle, you will find anchoring out a dream, with just the ONE anchor..! By all means have the Fortress in reserve, but you won't need it I suspect, and if you encounter a lot of reefs and coral, the tripping mechanism would be a real boon there as well. I'm serious…but...
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Old 03-14-2015, 07:57 AM   #216
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"But the real reason for the high popularity of chain has mostly to do with deploying and retrieving the anchor and rode. IMO. For vessels over about 30' line handling becomes difficult."

Actually my bride does much of the anchor recovery . She is an ex sailor so has no problem laying a single turn on the spinning capstan, and adding another loop if the line starts to slip with her light pull.

If the anchor line does have a bit 10 ft or so of chain , she simply makes sure there is only one turn on the capstan and it doesnt mind a bit at hauling chain instead of line.

The line is figure 8ed on deck so replacement (or recycling as dock line ) is more a sun exposure deal than a wear deal.

Of course we anchor O nite , not for months with the same anchor set.

Should any wear be seen at the anchor end , cutting off a 3 ft piece and another bowlin doesn't take long.
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Old 03-14-2015, 09:14 AM   #217
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Find what works for your conditions plus the unexpected curves that nature inevitably throws your way.
Eric often speaks of taut line mooring systems using vertically loaded anchors and elastic mooring lines.

Chain proponents generally speak of catenary mooring systems using drag embedment anchors.

Y'all aren't even speaking the same language.
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Old 03-14-2015, 12:54 PM   #218
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FlyWright wrote,
"I get the feeling you want to argue established facts regarding anchoring knowledge just for the sake of argument."
Of course.
You call it "argument" I call it discussion. And "established facts" may not be correct or true over time. Established facts have changed re anchoring small boats since the combination gypsy came about. And if the "facts" are true they need to be shown to be so ... not just because everybody says so. What is a forum for? ..... discussion and finding or re-establishing norms and the discovery of truth IMO. By discussing established "facts" and turning them around looking at them w an open mind much could or may be learned. Like the "facts" are good and can be taken to the bank. One dosn't learn by doing what so and so says. We could arrive at ... OMG it looks like we've been do'in this for all these years and there's no need. As time marches on if you don't inventory what you have and accept at this time you may go astray very soon.

I know poly dosn't stand up to UV and my perspective is probably wider as I'm willing to question things ... everything if there seems a need. If there's enough objective discussion we will arrive on the same page speaking the same language. And everyone can share the knowledge put together by many and from many observations.

I know (because I know him) that Peter B shares your opinion. Just look what he said to FreshAlaska. FreshAlaska is doing what is established as the accepted norm where he lives. If I went there and told him he should use chain or nylon and he did what you're suggesting I do .. he'd be using poly forever. What I don't like about Pertr's post is the "get real and do it like we do" tone. He's basically a newbie and shouldn't be talked down to by the moderators.

Progress is made by questioning things but one needs to be objective in one's questioning and about one's answers. Al if you want me to limit my talk here to supporting only established norms TF will be way too dull for me and I 'll move along with or without your input. Talking about possibilities opens the door to progress and learning. Pushing it away invites another dark age.
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Old 03-17-2015, 06:24 PM   #219
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Talking about possibilities opens the door to progress and learning. Pushing it away invites another dark age.
Eric--- While I believe many of your anchoring theories are not viable in reality I do agree with your statement above. If you have not seen this, you might appreciate this General Electric Commercial titled 'Ideas are Scary." Great concept and execution.

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Old 03-17-2015, 08:41 PM   #220
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In response to Peter B
First off I can't afford the expense of chain, windless and more batteries to power it plus heavy gauge wire to the front of my boat. I can barely afford the two boats I have now.
Anchoring here is a joy. I have two paid crew members who take pride in their job and the only way they have ever hauled an anchor is by hand. They don't break down and are very affordable. My boat in Alaska has all chain rode and a windless and just setting and retrieving one anchor is not any easier then doing two anchors here in the Philippines by hand. I never leave the pilot house. My Banca here only draws around 1 meter of water and we mostly anchor in shallow water. Poly line is very readily available here at roughly 1/3 the price of nylon, I buy it in 220 meter spools. To import things into this corrupt country is not to be taken lightly, and fly to New Zealand or OZ to get chain you got to be kidding. Why put things on your boat that would be hard to replace. To each his own, my system for where I'm at and my budget works really good and I'm perfectly satisfied with it.

Two years ago we where in a big blow at night, worse then predicted. blew around 50 knots and about half the yachts here dragged. One ran into another boat and did damage and one went up on the beach with the high tide. It was so dark and very hard rain to see what the other boats where all doing but the they, some, where moving and re anchoring. We never had a problem even when the wind switched 180 degrees.

You know some big fishing boats here, like 100 feet or so start their big diesel engines by hand. They take a big thick probably poly line and some how wrap it around the engine and like 7 guys inline, like tug of war, pull it a couple of feet to pop off the engine.

Yes I hear you Eric people have a hard time to think out of the box. People are sheep they like to follow.
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