Anchor Rode Poll
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Nomad Willy
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400' of 5/8ths nylon Brait, 3' 3/8ths chain and 2' of wire rope.
That sounds like quite oversized. Are you using grade 1 chain? What is the displacement of your 52'?
BrotherDave
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Eric you have had some interesting posts on all-chain vs combination rode & catenary. I'm considering how to spool up my currently-empty anchor winch drum and reading the topics with interest. Initially I planned to go all chain...you may have convinced me to think again.
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psneeld
Guru
It is hardly a new or individual concept.
Be careful of believing some things posted as if they are significantly different than conventional wisdom
For ground tackle drums, either all, some or no chain line combo is possible...and equally convenient. .
Whatever your conditions or preference requires.
For many cruisers with windlesses set up for chain...then that's the preferred rode...but it's not rocket science.
Combo rodes are great, and all chain rodes are often combo rides anyhow because of snubbers....just easier to deploy or recover as all chain but with snubbers.
Be careful of believing some things posted as if they are significantly different than conventional wisdom
For ground tackle drums, either all, some or no chain line combo is possible...and equally convenient. .
Whatever your conditions or preference requires.
For many cruisers with windlesses set up for chain...then that's the preferred rode...but it's not rocket science.
Combo rodes are great, and all chain rodes are often combo rides anyhow because of snubbers....just easier to deploy or recover as all chain but with snubbers.
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BrotherDave
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Agreed it's not new or individual. Just something I stopped thinking about a long time ago. Recently found it interesting again after reading some posts here.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Brother Dave,
My boat came w a 13# Danforth anchor and I belive it was the original supplied by Willard. Many important things about the Willard boat like the size of her engine and rudder were spot on as proven over time. It would take years to fully appreciate the anchor.
The Willard 30 is a boat that is about as large as a boat can get and still be anchored by hand. I have found however that anchoring in other that benign conditions requires more holding power thahttp://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63141&stc=1&d=1490498942n the average anchor can deliver. In retrospect though I never did anchor w an average anchor in high winds. Realizing this early on in my relationship w the W30 sent me reading all I could find about anchor performance.
I was impressed w the new XYZ anchor that out performed all others in an anchor test. Most of the anchors were 20 to 35 lbs but the little XYZ was only 13lbs. Rushed out and bought one.
Well it sure did hold unbelievably well but it was a bear to set. Close to half the time I failed to get it set. I did get it to set in Alison Harbour for a 50 knot gale and it held for a day and a half mostly at 50 knots.
That led to much experimenting w anchoring technique. And that consisted mostly of practicing laying the anchor down so it was right side up facing the boat. I got good at it but still could'nt dependably set the XYZ.
So I bought another anchor .. the Manson Supreme. It's setting was'nt dramatic but it set dependably and otherwise worked fine. I bought a 15lb Supreme and It weighed in at 18lbs.
By then I had observed that XYZ anchors had a new model out .. XYZ Extreme. It was kind of a long skinny version of the original. Had to try it so ordered one up. It was a bit undramatic like the Supreme but it performed very well. A guy I knew in Thorne Bay saw my Extreme and had to have it. I had an extra XYZ main fluke and a shank so all I needed to make another Extreme was to get a tip for the fluke.
Sold my Extreme and then called XYZ to order a new fluke tip ... and the guy would'nt sell me one. Said he was selling only aluminum anchors then and had no steel tips. Well he still has his add for the steel anchor w the SS tip. Do'nt know what his problem was but I was out of the XYZ game.
Still wanted that anchor so I had a mild steel tip made (in Craig (close to Thorne Bay)) so I was back in the game. My new tip had a very wide business end. About 3 1/2" wide. Kinda like a wide chisel. I was hoping I had the mother of all mud anchors. Soon we left Alaska and ran the boat down the coast. Used that XYZ anchor most of the time. One night it held us in a 50 knot gale and we had to re-anchor during the night as another boat was dragging down on us. I was very supprised that it set just like the sharp pointed original. Just yesterday I modified the tip by narrowing the wide chisel tip to about 2" .. maybe a bit less.
Still feeling the need to experiment l then cut the roll bar off of the Supreme. I was sure the anchor would perform better w/o the RB. Only tried it once and it would'nt set. I was tired and in a hurry .. also it was blow'in about 20 and I did'nt feel like play'in around. Put out my old 13lb Danforth and settled in for the night.
Since then I have seriously modified the Supreme w a structure on top of the shank to force the anchor into propper setting attitude and keep it on it's side or right side up. I even named it the Hogback Supreme. I also did numerous other modifications like filling in the crude fabrication imperfections on the bottom w JBWeld. I made the tip sharper and just yesterday did a lot of grinding on the leading edge of .. and the bottom of the shank. I planned this anchor around maximum penetration. Plan on using it 90% of the time on our trip to the south sound soon.
All this was to (more or less) avoid buying and installing a winch for chain. It looks that way but it's in my nature to modify things. Can't resist the temptation to try and make things better. It's fun for me. I almost bought the winch w a gypsy last fall but got a new capstan instead. It works. And I'm able to keep my ground tackle light.
The Supreme weighs 15lbs now and w my mostly nylon rode w only 3' of chain it's easy to pull. It depends on a high performance anchor and I think evolution has led me to where I want to be.
Pictures:
1. New XYZ Extreme
2. Extreme w new and different tip.
3. Much modified Mason Supreme.
4. The original XYZ
My boat came w a 13# Danforth anchor and I belive it was the original supplied by Willard. Many important things about the Willard boat like the size of her engine and rudder were spot on as proven over time. It would take years to fully appreciate the anchor.
The Willard 30 is a boat that is about as large as a boat can get and still be anchored by hand. I have found however that anchoring in other that benign conditions requires more holding power thahttp://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=63141&stc=1&d=1490498942n the average anchor can deliver. In retrospect though I never did anchor w an average anchor in high winds. Realizing this early on in my relationship w the W30 sent me reading all I could find about anchor performance.
I was impressed w the new XYZ anchor that out performed all others in an anchor test. Most of the anchors were 20 to 35 lbs but the little XYZ was only 13lbs. Rushed out and bought one.
Well it sure did hold unbelievably well but it was a bear to set. Close to half the time I failed to get it set. I did get it to set in Alison Harbour for a 50 knot gale and it held for a day and a half mostly at 50 knots.
That led to much experimenting w anchoring technique. And that consisted mostly of practicing laying the anchor down so it was right side up facing the boat. I got good at it but still could'nt dependably set the XYZ.
So I bought another anchor .. the Manson Supreme. It's setting was'nt dramatic but it set dependably and otherwise worked fine. I bought a 15lb Supreme and It weighed in at 18lbs.
By then I had observed that XYZ anchors had a new model out .. XYZ Extreme. It was kind of a long skinny version of the original. Had to try it so ordered one up. It was a bit undramatic like the Supreme but it performed very well. A guy I knew in Thorne Bay saw my Extreme and had to have it. I had an extra XYZ main fluke and a shank so all I needed to make another Extreme was to get a tip for the fluke.
Sold my Extreme and then called XYZ to order a new fluke tip ... and the guy would'nt sell me one. Said he was selling only aluminum anchors then and had no steel tips. Well he still has his add for the steel anchor w the SS tip. Do'nt know what his problem was but I was out of the XYZ game.
Still wanted that anchor so I had a mild steel tip made (in Craig (close to Thorne Bay)) so I was back in the game. My new tip had a very wide business end. About 3 1/2" wide. Kinda like a wide chisel. I was hoping I had the mother of all mud anchors. Soon we left Alaska and ran the boat down the coast. Used that XYZ anchor most of the time. One night it held us in a 50 knot gale and we had to re-anchor during the night as another boat was dragging down on us. I was very supprised that it set just like the sharp pointed original. Just yesterday I modified the tip by narrowing the wide chisel tip to about 2" .. maybe a bit less.
Still feeling the need to experiment l then cut the roll bar off of the Supreme. I was sure the anchor would perform better w/o the RB. Only tried it once and it would'nt set. I was tired and in a hurry .. also it was blow'in about 20 and I did'nt feel like play'in around. Put out my old 13lb Danforth and settled in for the night.
Since then I have seriously modified the Supreme w a structure on top of the shank to force the anchor into propper setting attitude and keep it on it's side or right side up. I even named it the Hogback Supreme. I also did numerous other modifications like filling in the crude fabrication imperfections on the bottom w JBWeld. I made the tip sharper and just yesterday did a lot of grinding on the leading edge of .. and the bottom of the shank. I planned this anchor around maximum penetration. Plan on using it 90% of the time on our trip to the south sound soon.
All this was to (more or less) avoid buying and installing a winch for chain. It looks that way but it's in my nature to modify things. Can't resist the temptation to try and make things better. It's fun for me. I almost bought the winch w a gypsy last fall but got a new capstan instead. It works. And I'm able to keep my ground tackle light.
The Supreme weighs 15lbs now and w my mostly nylon rode w only 3' of chain it's easy to pull. It depends on a high performance anchor and I think evolution has led me to where I want to be.
Pictures:
1. New XYZ Extreme
2. Extreme w new and different tip.
3. Much modified Mason Supreme.
4. The original XYZ
Attachments
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Nomad Willy
Guru
Brother Dave,
I have a hydraulic reel winch and if yours is similar you may want to look carefully at the capacity of rode on the reel. Very long rodes often won't fit on these reel winch drums. My 400' of 5/8ths Brait won't fit on my reel. I'm thinking 5/8ths chain and perhaps 12' of 3/8ths chain near the anchor would be better for you.
For an emergency a 500' nylon rode could be used to keep you off the rocks or/and beach.
I have a hydraulic reel winch and if yours is similar you may want to look carefully at the capacity of rode on the reel. Very long rodes often won't fit on these reel winch drums. My 400' of 5/8ths Brait won't fit on my reel. I'm thinking 5/8ths chain and perhaps 12' of 3/8ths chain near the anchor would be better for you.
For an emergency a 500' nylon rode could be used to keep you off the rocks or/and beach.
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BrotherDave
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You've put some time and energy into your anchors! 'The mother of all mud anchors'...too funny. Well done.
My winch drum is similar to yours and I'm not sure the size. I'm out of town at the moment and my boat is finishing an 18-month re-fit so I haven't looked at the anchor/rode setup in more than a year. I'll have to check it out when I get home this week.
'I'm thinking 5/8ths chain and perhaps 12' of 3/8ths chain near the anchor would be better for you.' -Really? Why put the lighter chain at the anchor?
My winch drum is similar to yours and I'm not sure the size. I'm out of town at the moment and my boat is finishing an 18-month re-fit so I haven't looked at the anchor/rode setup in more than a year. I'll have to check it out when I get home this week.
'I'm thinking 5/8ths chain and perhaps 12' of 3/8ths chain near the anchor would be better for you.' -Really? Why put the lighter chain at the anchor?
Nomad Willy
Guru
Dave,
Sorry .. typo.
Transfered my 5/8" Brait talk into 5/8" chain. Should have been 5/16" chain.
The great thing about the reel winch is the ability to have several different kinds of rode and all will roll up on the reel including shackles. Three kinds of rode including studded chain is not uncommon on fish boats in Craig.
By the way I have a 35# Dreadnought.
Sorry .. typo.
Transfered my 5/8" Brait talk into 5/8" chain. Should have been 5/16" chain.
The great thing about the reel winch is the ability to have several different kinds of rode and all will roll up on the reel including shackles. Three kinds of rode including studded chain is not uncommon on fish boats in Craig.
By the way I have a 35# Dreadnought.
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BrotherDave
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Got it, thanks much. See your PM's, I'm curious about something.
BrotherDave
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The Dreadnought looks mean...
psneeld
Guru
Based on thousands of inputs from real cruisers and their successes and failures with new and old anchors.....
The off top dead center inputs on how anchors can be made better and how outside the norm anchoring techniques are the trick.....good luck following the advice.....
To me, ranks right up there with tin foil hats.
The off top dead center inputs on how anchors can be made better and how outside the norm anchoring techniques are the trick.....good luck following the advice.....
To me, ranks right up there with tin foil hats.
BrotherDave
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Yes, thank you. Very good. I was hoping you might say so.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Mako,
Have only used the Dreadnought once. In a perfect small anchorage off Wells Passage. I set the anchor down on the bottom and backed down throwing out rode until I thought I had out enough. Stopped and the boat's enertia took up the slack for about a 3-1 scope. Put the boat in gear and was about to start a drag to set but the rode snapped up smartly. Added some power and the line just got tighter. Kinda like some guy down there tied it to an old D8 Dozer.
The anchor is much like a Navy. I consider them "bulldozer anchors". Like the Navy they don't burry but w any dragging they plow up a bunch of seabed in front of the horns sticking up on the rear of the top of the anchor and dug up by the flukes. The bigger the pile on top of the flukes and in front of the horns the greater the resistance. These same horns on the bottom of the anchor push up the rear of the anchor giving the flukes a good angle of attack. The horns act like a lever forcing down the flukes.
These stockless anchors may look like something very old compared to a Rocna or an Excel but I have a sneaking suspicion they have better performance than generally thought. Many many boats and ships the world over depend on stockless anchors.
My 35lb Dreadnought would probably work here in Puget Sound but I'd need to hang it on the bow and try to see around it. Don't like that idea. Or I'd need to hoist it on deck w a boat hook and store it there. Rather use my smaller and lighter anchors. Mostly because I have testing to do.
Edit;
Mako,
Better than a fisherman? You mean like a Kedge? I would think so. Lots of fishermen in Craig use Dreadnoughts and a few Navys as well but I've never seen a Kedge as a primary anchor. No I haven't compared them. Have you seen Steve (Panope) vids? He tested one .. I think. You still look'in at that one that had "14" in it's name?
Have only used the Dreadnought once. In a perfect small anchorage off Wells Passage. I set the anchor down on the bottom and backed down throwing out rode until I thought I had out enough. Stopped and the boat's enertia took up the slack for about a 3-1 scope. Put the boat in gear and was about to start a drag to set but the rode snapped up smartly. Added some power and the line just got tighter. Kinda like some guy down there tied it to an old D8 Dozer.
The anchor is much like a Navy. I consider them "bulldozer anchors". Like the Navy they don't burry but w any dragging they plow up a bunch of seabed in front of the horns sticking up on the rear of the top of the anchor and dug up by the flukes. The bigger the pile on top of the flukes and in front of the horns the greater the resistance. These same horns on the bottom of the anchor push up the rear of the anchor giving the flukes a good angle of attack. The horns act like a lever forcing down the flukes.
These stockless anchors may look like something very old compared to a Rocna or an Excel but I have a sneaking suspicion they have better performance than generally thought. Many many boats and ships the world over depend on stockless anchors.
My 35lb Dreadnought would probably work here in Puget Sound but I'd need to hang it on the bow and try to see around it. Don't like that idea. Or I'd need to hoist it on deck w a boat hook and store it there. Rather use my smaller and lighter anchors. Mostly because I have testing to do.
Edit;
Mako,
Better than a fisherman? You mean like a Kedge? I would think so. Lots of fishermen in Craig use Dreadnoughts and a few Navys as well but I've never seen a Kedge as a primary anchor. No I haven't compared them. Have you seen Steve (Panope) vids? He tested one .. I think. You still look'in at that one that had "14" in it's name?
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swordfish
Senior Member
I have 45 meters of chain. Every 3 meters I have a mark (1 mark is 3 meter, 2 marks is 6 meters 3 marks is 9 meter) And use a 3: 1 ratio for calm weather and 5: 1 for a little wind.
At a water depth of 4 meters in calm weather, I have to put out 12 meters of chain, therefor 4 marks.. placed at the waterline.
I will translate...
I have 147.6 feet of chain. Every 9.8 feet I have a mark (1 mark is 9.8 feet, 2 marks is 19.6 feet 3 marks is 29.5 feet) And use a 3: 1 ratio for calm weather and 5: 1 for a little wind.
At a water depth of 13.1 feet in calm weather, I have to put out 39.3feet of chain, therefor 4 marks.. placed at the waterline.
At a water depth of 4 meters in calm weather, I have to put out 12 meters of chain, therefor 4 marks.. placed at the waterline.
I will translate...
I have 147.6 feet of chain. Every 9.8 feet I have a mark (1 mark is 9.8 feet, 2 marks is 19.6 feet 3 marks is 29.5 feet) And use a 3: 1 ratio for calm weather and 5: 1 for a little wind.
At a water depth of 13.1 feet in calm weather, I have to put out 39.3feet of chain, therefor 4 marks.. placed at the waterline.
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Simi 60
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13mm all chain grade L.
Every 25m or 80ft which is my minimum I have cheap 1/4inch red 3strand rope woven through the chain which stands out like dogs bollocks and is easily seen from the wheelhouse.
Every 25m or 80ft which is my minimum I have cheap 1/4inch red 3strand rope woven through the chain which stands out like dogs bollocks and is easily seen from the wheelhouse.
Xlantic
Guru
When I bought my current boat 4 years ago it came with a very heavy stockless anchor, a Hall's I believe it was. It must have weighted a couple of hundred pounds. I used it the first summer, anchoring out 50 or 60 nights, but did not like it nor developed faith in it. It dragged on several locations, including one of those 3 in the morning vicious squall situations.
The next summer I bought an 88 lb. Rocna which I have now used 3 seasons without a hitch. It usually sets in the first attempt and has not dragged once.
Having said this, the boat I bought was skippered by an older professional sailor that swore by that stockless anchor. Maybe his anchoring technique was better than mine. In any case, when I bought the Rocna I gave him the stockless anchor for a boat he was building for himself and he was very appreciative.
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ksceviour
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We had, until a few days ago, a combination chain/rope rode on our recently purchased 35' trawler(about 75' of chain and a couple hundred line). That got changed right quick when we dragged in a small cove on Georgian Bay and went aground. Luckily we were awake and went up on the only mud spot in the whole area. We weren't alone in our troubles as at least one stern tied boat had to cast off their aft lines and move away from shore and two sailboats got their anchor chains wrapped up. It was a decent blow. All of us had moved into the narrow cove due to the forecast but there was limited swing room
We laid out quite a bit when we reset which held fine however I immediately got directions from the Admiral to put all chain on and be quick about it. The same scope in chain we had set initially (about 5:1) would have held no problems and after moving we laid out at least 7:1 but the horse had left the barn at that point.
In the small anchorages we have around here if the wind starts getting the better of you then adding scope with chain is much more desirable than playing out a ton of line to achieve the same effect. Sometimes you just can't.
My slip neighbor, oddly enough, just took chain 'off' his Monk 36. It was a salt water boat before he got it and had at about 500' of chain aboard. I don't know where that skipper had been going but that's a lot of holding power.
We laid out quite a bit when we reset which held fine however I immediately got directions from the Admiral to put all chain on and be quick about it. The same scope in chain we had set initially (about 5:1) would have held no problems and after moving we laid out at least 7:1 but the horse had left the barn at that point.
In the small anchorages we have around here if the wind starts getting the better of you then adding scope with chain is much more desirable than playing out a ton of line to achieve the same effect. Sometimes you just can't.
My slip neighbor, oddly enough, just took chain 'off' his Monk 36. It was a salt water boat before he got it and had at about 500' of chain aboard. I don't know where that skipper had been going but that's a lot of holding power.
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Nomad Willy
Guru
Chain is not holding power. It does add a little bit for most rigs but getting a better and/or bigger anchor is the road to holding power. Chain helps a lot re setting but very little on holding. Many think it's a big factor though.
ksceviour
Senior Member
I'll only partly agree to that statement. If you have an anchor that won't grab then yes chain alone isn't enough but boats of all sizes use chain because it sets the anchor you do have better and helps to keep it set. There is no comparison to the energy dissipation going on with chain over rope ie. It takes a great deal more energy to lift the equal length in chain and keep it off the bottom.
klee wyck
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Blast....the revival of this thread has me second guessing again.
To get help from the brain trust here I must display my ignorance. I have only ever anchored with all chain through a hawse.
Libra is currently set up with only 100' of all 1/2" chain and thru a hawse and then through the deck into the chain locker. PNW will not tolerate a 100' rode. There is a wildcat on the windlass. Is a combination rode an option to lengthening this? The spliced nylon would follow the chain down into the locker upon retrieval of the last 100' of the chain, right?
That would not work, would it?
Would only all chain work here when adding 250' of length?
To get help from the brain trust here I must display my ignorance. I have only ever anchored with all chain through a hawse.
Libra is currently set up with only 100' of all 1/2" chain and thru a hawse and then through the deck into the chain locker. PNW will not tolerate a 100' rode. There is a wildcat on the windlass. Is a combination rode an option to lengthening this? The spliced nylon would follow the chain down into the locker upon retrieval of the last 100' of the chain, right?
That would not work, would it?
Would only all chain work here when adding 250' of length?
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AusCan
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Bill,
Only 100 feet of chain is somewhat limited unless you only anchor in 10 feet of water. Most people would recommend a longer all chain setup, which probably means the 100 feet you now have isn't much use.
I have 100 feet of chain plus 200 feet of nylon spliced onto it. The deciding factor for me and many others is the type of windlass and how the rode will sit in the anchor locker.
Some windlass gypsies are designed for chain only. Some are combination chain/rope. If you have a combination gypsy/wildcat you can easily splice rope of the proper size to lengthen your rode. It may or may not fall into your chain locker nicely without backing up and causing problems. Sometimes it requires someone to hold a little tension on the incoming rode. Having a nice pliable rope (such as a nylon brait), and a deep chain locker certainly helps.
What works for one boat doesn't work for all boats. Find the combination of anchor/chain/rope/windlass/chain locker that works for you.
dhays
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Nothing wrong with adding 250' of nylon to your chain. Three strand would be cheap and easy.
klee wyck
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Thank you Auscan, that is useful.
I will attach a couple of photos here to see if I can tease some others into this as I think about it.
First, though I am a risk averse person and will go a long way to stay out of harms way in terms of expose in an anchorage, there is always a chance that this system gets tested in difficult conditions. While the boat is low windage it is very heavy and this combination to include the splices would need to withstand the surge and swell as it affects this 120,000# boat.
In the windlass picture, you are looking at it from the starboard of this double sided windlass. There is a gypsy on both sides for this 1/2" chain and the wildcat only over there on the port side, so I would do the combo over there. If I can imagine a way to make the switch from wildcat to gypsy and vice versa the other direction, then I could hook the nylon outside of the boat and secure to the beast of a bollard pictured on the very point of the bow. I would do this to eliminate the chance of chafe at the hawse and manage chafe risk up at this bollard.
I would actually prefer to coil the nylon up in the peak so I think only about seven feet of it would need to go into the chain locker with the bitter end of the chain.
Any show stoppers you guys see here? Is there such a cordage type that would make you feel secure hanging on it in these circumstances? Splice advice?
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klee wyck
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Mako,
This windlass is powered up by a 3 phase 400 volt motor coupled to the gears by a pair of v-belts. It is a two speed set of gears so I suppose the lower gear is for the manual backup should that become necessary.
While I am here, this combo rode idea is growing on me. One of the things I like about it the ease with which you could detach the gear from the boat, attach a float and come back for it later if you got in a situation where that was needed.
It looks like I would need 1 and 1/8" brait to match the WLL of 1/2 inch chain.
You still with me on this?
