View Poll Results: What type of rode do you ues.
All chain. 100 57.47%
Combination rode with less than one boat length of chain. 22 12.64%
Combination rode with more than one boat length of chain but less than 100'. 20 11.49%
Combination rode with more than 100' of chain. 32 18.39%
Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-07-2016, 12:28 PM   #81
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The intent of the thread was to see what kind of rode people use. It has fulfilled that and a discussion of why they use what they do has ensued. As the op of this thread I see no drift.
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Old 01-07-2016, 01:38 PM   #82
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Wifey B: Can I say "damn" on this forum? I mean I thought anchors were a horrific topic of wild inflammatory self-endorsed expertise and opinion but anchor rode. Omg. You all think you have the one and only answer. I'm glad I'm not a scientist and just know I like what we've got and it works fine for us. And, yes, I've read tons on anchoring and such. Enough to know reasonable people can disagree and to know that in doing so they often become unreasonable. You guys have me laughing hysterically.

And, please, take this in the good humor it's meant. Proceed with your debate. It's fine. I just find it humorous to see the intensity with which it's conducted, but still think you're all great.
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Old 01-07-2016, 01:40 PM   #83
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Wifey B: Oh and I did vote. All Chain. I'm in the majority. We win. Doesn't mean we're right...just we have the rest of you outnumbered.
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:22 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Here's another illustrative example. Lets say you're anchored and can attach a 200lb weight to the anchor 3' from the anchor. One hell of a Kellet one could say. A dramatic increase in holding power will result.


Maybe; maybe not. Our anchor maker recommends X scope with Y rode because that usually -- apparently -- renders the best angle of attack (flukes to bottom).

In our case, adding that much weight that close too the anchor would probably change that angle of attack dramatically enough so results might not be predictable. Might not set best. Might not continue digging in further. And so forth.

I think that leads to the conclusion that "optimum" angle of attack is the goal... and that would vary greatly given specific anchor (design, weight, construction, etc.), rode composition, holding ground, maybe 5-6 other variables...

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Old 01-07-2016, 02:23 PM   #85
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I switch from 3/8" to 5/16". I think the 5/16" is strong enough. The 3/8" was hurting her back every time she pulled the anchor up. Hopefully this will be better for her.
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:05 PM   #86
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Ranger,
Just an extreme example to show rode weight minimizes rode angle at the anchor if the weight is near the anchor. And is next to worthless near the boat.
See the thread "Anchor Rode Weight Bias".

Wifey B wrote;
"Wifey B: Oh and I did vote. All Chain. I'm in the majority. We win."
What have you won?
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:22 PM   #87
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Ranger,
Just an extreme example to show rode weight minimizes rode angle at the anchor if the weight is near the anchor. And is next to worthless near the boat.

I don't think the extra weight is worthless when near the boat. It still contributes to lowering the angle of pull on the anchor. But I do agree that more weight down near the anchor can be more effective. Which raises the question, rather than wrestle with an additional weight and the hassle of installing and removing it, if one feels more weight is needed at that end of the rode why not simply opt for a heavier anchor in the first place?
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:38 PM   #88
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I don't think the extra weight is worthless when near the boat. It still contributes to lowering the angle of pull on the anchor. But I do agree that more weight down near the anchor can be more effective. Which raises the question, rather than wrestle with an additional weight and the hassle of installing and removing it, if one feels more weight is needed at that end of the rode why not simply opt for a heavier anchor in the first place?
The purpose of the weight is to reduce the angle of pull (i.e. increase the horizontal component) on the anchor. This is not the same as increasing the weight of the anchor. It's not obvious which would be more effective use of the extra weight.

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Old 01-07-2016, 04:02 PM   #89
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The purpose of the weight is to reduce the angle of pull (i.e. increase the horizontal component) on the anchor.
We know that. The question Eric has raised is where on the rode would the extra weight be the most beneficial.

Assuming the same amount of weight and the same pull from the boat, where should the weight be to keep the angle of pull on the anchor the lowest?

Eric claims it should be down near the anchor itself. I don't have any reason based on physics and/or geometry to dispute that but I'm not sure it would be any more effective in reducing the angle of pull on the anchor in that position than it would if it was halfway or even a third of the way down the rode from the boat, and it may even be less effective down next to the anchor.

I think the only real way to know is to perform a test with an anchor, a rode, a weight, a boat, some wind and a diver or a camera. Otherwise it seems like it's mostly just speculation.
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Old 01-07-2016, 04:14 PM   #90
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While weight near the anchor is good, it doesn't mean that the remaining rode MUST be lighter.

I believe he is starting with a bad premise and coming to an incorrect solution.

Seem now and in the past others agree, especially trying to use the tree example as Spy pointed out...boats are dynamic situations not static. Continuing to think that the weight of the rode past a length of chain (biased weight as it was referred to) just doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 01-07-2016, 04:15 PM   #91
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Quote:
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We know that. The question Eric has raised is where on the rode would the extra weight be the most beneficial.

...
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was addressing your point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
... if one feels more weight is needed at that end of the rode why not simply opt for a heavier anchor in the first place?
I'm saying it's not clear that having a heavier anchor would actually be better.

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Old 01-07-2016, 04:36 PM   #92
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I think the only real way to know is to perform a test with an anchor, a rode, a weight, a boat, some wind and a diver or a camera.

... or analytical by solving the appropriate differential equation 😅
Didn't do that so far but since the ratio of pulling force H and rode weight q plays a role for the simple catenary I would expect that the optimum position of the additional weight W might depend from the ratio of H / W.


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Old 01-07-2016, 04:37 PM   #93
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I'm saying it's not clear that having a heavier anchor would actually be better.

Richard
It wouldn't with regards to affecting the angle of the rode meeting the anchor shank. So your original statement is correct I believe.

If one agrees the purpose of anchoring is to keep the anchor firmly stuck in the bottom, while a heavy weight next to the anchor might help to reduce the angle of pull on the anchor and thus help it stay stuck in, having a big-ass heavy anchor might simply prevent it from coming out of the bottom period, regardless of the angle of the rode.

Either way, mission accomplished. only the big-ass heavy anchor might be more convenient to deal with in deployment and retrieve than a smaller anchor plus the weight.
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Old 01-07-2016, 06:02 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by manyboats View Post

Wifey B wrote;
"Wifey B: Oh and I did vote. All Chain. I'm in the majority. We win."
What have you won?
Wifey B: About as much as has been resolved in this discussion/argument. Just like anchors we're all going to keep doing it the same way we have been, convinced we are right.
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Old 01-07-2016, 07:27 PM   #95
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Your right Wifey,
But I like to kick things around that have possibilities of being a better way of doing things. Picked that up in college instead of good grades. But as you say ... not much has been learned. I fail to consider the huge numbers of people on the forum that never post. But many here will remember the idea and act on it later.

Marin I definitely do think that having an anchor that weighs as much as 95% of your chain and nylon line would hold the boat better. Then you could go back to a Bruce .. can a 300lb Bruce be found?

waddenkruiser,
Think you could come up with the ideal location of weight on a rode mathematically? Without much trouble of course.

Brit,
I think it's clear a heavier anchor all other things being equal is better.
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Old 01-07-2016, 07:37 PM   #96
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Brit,
I think it's clear a heavier anchor all other things being equal is better.

Except for that pesky example of the Fortress........
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Old 01-08-2016, 07:08 AM   #97
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Ranger,
Just an extreme example to show rode weight minimizes rode angle at the anchor if the weight is near the anchor. And is next to worthless near the boat.
See the thread "Anchor Rode Weight Bias".

Yep, understood you meant that as the extreme example (and I posted here before seeing the other thread). Just thought useful to counterbalance that for the record with a "maybe; it depends."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
I don't think the extra weight is worthless when near the boat. It still contributes to lowering the angle of pull on the anchor. But I do agree that more weight down near the anchor can be more effective. Which raises the question, rather than wrestle with an additional weight and the hassle of installing and removing it, if one feels more weight is needed at that end of the rode why not simply opt for a heavier anchor in the first place?
Without Wadden's calculations, I could make a guesstimate that a kellet would be more effective nearer the anchor than nearer the boat. (Given also the "maybe; it depends" influenced by specific anchors, bottoms, etc.) How nearer? Dunno, and I suspect it would vary for the almost infinite numbers of "systems" out there: combination boat, anchor design/weight/etc., rode makeup, scope, wind, current, yaddy yaddy yadda...

I do very much agree, for us, deploying and retrieving a kellet would be a major pain in the backside. Much (MUCH!) easier to increase anchor size/weight. Even if our windlass craps out, retrieving a larger anchor manually would probably be easier than getting a kellet -- assuming useful weight -- back aboard.

Another approach we could maybe use is to insert more chain between our existing spliced-on length and the anchor. That would probably depend if the coupling between existing and new insert could feed through our gypsy. I haven't at all investigated this potential option, so have no clue if there are appropriate shackles for this kind of approach... but in any case, it might make a useful difference to our rode's normal catenary...

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Old 01-08-2016, 08:30 AM   #98
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When a vessel with 30' of chain and the rest three strand comes into a crowded anchorage and sees chain hanging over the bow rollers of the boats next to him/her what factors come into play when positioning his/her vessel for the anchor drop?
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Old 01-08-2016, 08:41 AM   #99
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When a vessel with 30' of chain and the rest three strand comes into a crowded anchorage and sees chain hanging over the bow rollers of the boats next to him/her what factors come into play when positioning his/her vessel for the anchor drop?
As in all anchoring situations...there is usually several or more factors involved.

Depth of water....forecast weather...is there tidal current....what style boat is the dropper and what style vessels would be nearby...to name a few....
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Old 01-08-2016, 12:07 PM   #100
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When a vessel with 30' of chain and the rest three strand comes into a crowded anchorage and sees chain hanging over the bow rollers of the boats next to him/her what factors come into play when positioning his/her vessel for the anchor drop?

Been there done that of course. Never used more than 15' of chain. The solution is just to set the anchor hard and deep and pick up rode till your at about 2-1 scope.
Many here are horrified at even the thought of 2-1 but Steve's anchoring vids have dispelled some paranoia regarding that. But if the wind blew up I'd either increase scope or move.
Basically the chain reduces swinging room when there's little or no wind. The line rode boats will blow downwind first I'll grant but the chain boys will be right along too as the wind increases.
But the greenhorn line rode boater will probably anchor at long scope as he's been told that's best ... and swing all over the place. True.

I came into an anchorage in BC called Forward Harbour. In one corner there was a small area of reason of reasonable depth (30-40') and it was filled w boats of all descriptions. Little Bayliners, big converted tugs and big and small fish boats (some rafted) and cruisers and trawlers. No way was I going in there. Went up the Inlet some and anchored in 85' of water.

Ground tackle incompatability in anchorages just has to be dealt with. What would you suggest? A big heavy trawler switch to line rode or a little sailboat switch to several hundred pounds of chain. At least the trawler would be more seaworthy w the all line than the little sailboat w heavy chain. The answer is the best seamanship should prevail.
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