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Old 07-12-2018, 01:23 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
Hi Bruce-

No, I still have the Manson on the bow pulpit. My poor experience with it was I believe entirely due to the muck that clung to it. But that does not mean I love the anchor its just that I have cycled a 44 Bruce, a 55 Delta, 88 Delta and as of now the 80 Manson Supreme. And yes the Fortress FX55 remains in the bilge.

I had high hopes for the Delta but both plowed slowly across the ocean bottom. My boat has a great deal of wind loading with it being entirely enclosed with canvas which could aggravate anchoring. This I do know, after all my expensive attempts to reliably anchor as we did with our old sailboat, my Wife now almost demands that I get a mooring rather than anchor.

I mentioned in a different post how I would like to reconstruct my bow pulpit to accommodate two different styles of anchors. I will have to see how much time I have to do so next winter.
Foggy, FWIW, my advice - seriously - sell all those anchors, except maybe the Fortress, as a spare, and invest in the approp. sized Sarca Excel, and your wife will soon stop nagging you to take up a mooring every time you go out. That must be soooo limiting.

Oh, and your pulpit will be fine just the way it is.
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:41 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Nomad Willy View Post
Very glad to see you Peter,
“Boat sold”...... OMG now you’re boatless.
Is that really you Peter? Hard to belive. Now you get to go out for dinner though. And ya don’t hafta worry bout sink’in and all that rot. Didn’t mean “rot” literally.

You covered a lot of things in your excellent post. Now you’ve got me think’in if I love my anchors more than Willy haha. I do get into my anchors.

Just about got Willy ready to go out in the real world. Gotta see how the mods work but I always take my faithful Danforth in case my experiments fail. Some of my anchors have failed not even modified. Failed to set.

Is your life really different w/o the boat?
Hi Eric. Yes, bit of a shock in the end - I'd almost come to the conclusion she would not sell - sticking to me like glue. But all it needed in the end was a buyer who knew his oates, recognised all her wee imperfections, and instead of walking, thought "I can deal with that - she's still a great boat", and she was gone.

As to how it'll affect my life. Well, early days, but already I have been found without an excuse now on a Sunday to "just duck down to the marina to check the boat - or do a bit of this or that".
On the other hand, I can now rent out the berth, and have some 'incoming' instead of it all being 'outgoing'.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:25 AM   #163
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Peter,
Yes ... wish we had more “incoming”
Glad you finally “got-er-done”.
Hate it when a sale draggs and draggs.
Like your expression “sticking to me like glue”.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:37 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
A Rocna dragged 3 times? Two in a gentle reversing tide after POWER SETTING???

Been there, done that with a Manson Supreme that veeeery closely resembles a Rocna and I always power set. Yes, I know my experience was discussed earlier where I claimed this anchor may not be reliable in all situations especially resetting when choked with mud. Informative to read similar experiences with a Rocna.
I believe a lot of dragging is caused by powering down too soon and too aggressively. It's a good way to make any anchor design drag.

Let's look at this from another perspective folks. Look at the types of anchors that are used to set moorings. By definition, this is essentially anchoring your boat on extremely short scope. So what get's used? Dor Mor pyramids, mushrooms, concrete blocks, hog grates. In many cases, heavy stuff, but in all cases is designed to, and allowed to sink, or "soak" into the sea bottom. Also used are screw or auger types, again, allowed to set deep into the bottom.

That's why weight is considered a critical factor. Think about it, why does 20 or 40 pounds or 100 pounds of extra weight an important specification in selecting an anchor to hold an 80,000 pound, high windage boat? But if you don't let the weight serve its purpose, what good is it? Sure, a heavier anchor of any given design will almost always have more surface area, but to what end if you don't let that area get deep into the sea bed? This is a key reason I maintain that technique is at least 80% of the game, and patience is 80% of technique.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:15 PM   #165
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George,
Heavier anchors brings to mind the Forfjord, Navy and Dreadnoght.

These anchors don’t burry in the traditional sense. They have a rather bulbous rear end that acts more like a bulldozer and creates it’s drag with only a small amount of penetration.

I’d like to see an anchor test that featured a number of this type of anchor so as to get an idea how much holding power they have. I’m thinking about 1/2 as much. This would mean to replace my typical anchors w one of the big heavies I’d prolly need a 40-45lb anchor. My usual is 13 to 20lbs. But very few anchors are made small enough to put into the test I describe. I once had a 25lb FjorFord but I couldn’t get it to set whereI tried it. I have a 35lb Dreadnought but consider it a bit small for a everyday working anchor. Iknow where there’s a 65lb Navy but consider it about 10lbs too heavy. Used the Dreadnought once and was the fastest setting anchor I’ve ever deployed.
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Old 07-13-2018, 07:18 AM   #166
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Eric wrote: “I’d like to see an anchor test that featured a number of this type of anchor so as to get an idea how much holding power they have. I’m thinking about 1/2 as much.”

I’ll second that if not even greater. My former boat, Willard 40, came with an 80 lb Forfjord. I could never get it to set and hold (to my satisfaction and comfort) in the Chesapeake Bay seabeds. That is when I discovered the Super MAX and the 45 lb Super MAX 17 set easily and held firmly every time. Now truth be said, I never felt the Forfjord was ever meant to be a soft seabed anchor and probably would perform better in the seabeds it was probably designed to used in. For it ti work in the seabeds I was anchoring in, I probably would have required an even larger Forfjord.

If someone wants to pay the shipping, they can have the Forfjord!

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Old 07-13-2018, 09:23 AM   #167
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Steve,
I have no idea where the ForFjord came from. From the name one could assume they came from Norway. But fishermen in SE Alaska swear by them and you could sell yours very easily there. Why is it popular? I think it resembles older anchors like the Navy and Dreadnought. Fishermen tend to follow and do what the old highliners do and they did that in generations before. But the fisherman are the king of the “bigger is better” fraternity. Many fishermen have 2,3 and even four kinds (or sections) of rode. They start at the anchor end of the rode w heavy chain. Frequently very heavy chain. Even studded chain. Then they have one or two more sizes of chain and finally nylon line. This multi-pice rode is easily done w the hydraulic reel (not real) winches. Fishermen will often pick up used chain or a length of nylon line that was found here and there like in a net shed.

History of the Forfjord anchor is probably available at ___strand. The company that sells and manufacturers fishing gear like big net reels and the hydraulic anchor winches you see on most fishboats. You can buy them new begining at about $3000. They sell the Forfjord anchor and probably have them made at a local foundry in Seattle. The ForFjord anchor works for the fishermen because they have such heavy gear. Unless it blew fairly hard the rode they use would probably hold a sizable boat w/o the ForFjord anchor even attached. And of course the fishermen have the greatest respect for the fishermen w the biggest ForFjord. The only reason a fishermen gets another anchor is because he can’t afford the ForFjord anchor .. used or new.

2nd best on the fishermen’s list is the Dreadnought anchor. They havent made them for a very long time (guessing) but there’s about 15 fishboats in Craig (on Prince of Wales Is.) in SE Alaska that regularly use the Dreadnought. I bought a 35lb Dread when we were in Alaska and used it successfully once. Don’t know any history on the Dread but suspect it goes back to WWI and England. I belive a class of battleship at that time was called a Dreadnought and perhaps the anchor they used was made for some time after and it became known as the Dreadnought Anchor. I’m quite sure nobody makes this anchor today.

But Steve I suspect both the Dreadnought and the ForFjord were made as general purpose anchors for most all seabeds. Battleships and other navy ships that use these anchors (and the Navy anchor) anchor all over the world. However they probably rarely anchor at all but when they do they probably expect the anchor to hold on whatever seabed is down there. These anchors are usually held on the bows of ships and alternative anchors probably aren’t available unless a slightly different type is held on the other side of the bow. And I’m think’in they use the same lind of chain for the whole rode because they use a winch w a chain gypsy attached.

I’d like others to comment that know more or can correct my ramblings as a lot of the above is guessing from what I’ve read and seen in the past.
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:45 AM   #168
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If someone wants to pay the shipping, they can have the Forfjord!

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Old 07-13-2018, 09:48 AM   #169
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I would have thought that the Forfjord would work great in the Chesapeake, it has a profile not dissimilar from other anchors that do well there (Danforth, Fortress etc). They are nice and heavy if sized according to the mfr. and could be set quite deeply. You see big ships anchored in the Chesapeake every day, though admittedly not in the coves and creeks we plastic boaters frequent. I can't argue with using a SuperMax though if given the choice from the get-go.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:12 AM   #170
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I believe a lot of dragging is caused by powering down too soon and too aggressively. It's a good way to make any anchor design drag.

Let's look at this from another perspective folks. Look at the types of anchors that are used to set moorings. By definition, this is essentially anchoring your boat on extremely short scope. So what get's used? Dor Mor pyramids, mushrooms, concrete blocks, hog grates. In many cases, heavy stuff, but in all cases is designed to, and allowed to sink, or "soak" into the sea bottom. Also used are screw or auger types, again, allowed to set deep into the bottom.

That's why weight is considered a critical factor. Think about it, why does 20 or 40 pounds or 100 pounds of extra weight an important specification in selecting an anchor to hold an 80,000 pound, high windage boat? But if you don't let the weight serve its purpose, what good is it? Sure, a heavier anchor of any given design will almost always have more surface area, but to what end if you don't let that area get deep into the sea bed? This is a key reason I maintain that technique is at least 80% of the game, and patience is 80% of technique.

Sure, I am with you as to not pulling prematurely to set one’s anchor. I have over 25 years anchoring experience with our now gone 30’ Hunter sailboat. We for the most part enjoyed hours of comfortable sleeping with a Bruce 33# until our harbors filled with ell grass. When that happened the Bruce would pull out with a HUGE hunk of ocean bottom attached. Upgrading to the 44# didn’t solve the anchor’s proclivity to pull huge ocean bottom divots.

One last comment...at least in this post about setting times. If one watches the numerous anchor testing videos, I have yet to see one allow the anchor to nap.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:54 AM   #171
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While there may be anchors that hold reliably only if you take an hour to bed them in, there are several that do not require that to set and hold reliably. Why not use one of them?
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:58 AM   #172
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“I would have thought that the Forfjord would work great in the Chesapeake, it has a profile not dissimilar from other anchors that do well there (Danforth, Fortress etc). They are nice and heavy if sized according to the mfr. and could be set quite deeply. You see big ships anchored in the Chesapeake every day, though admittedly not in the coves and creeks we plastic boaters frequent. I can't argue with using a SuperMax though if given the choice from the get-go.”

George,
I have to agree with you on the “look alike” with the Danforth and Fortress. However the flukes are very blunt as opposed to sharp and easy to penetrate. I suppose I was using the Forfjord incorrectly! Had I had a gravity drop at a high rate of speed to the soft bottom, it probably would have sunk to China! However, I do not like to do that and like a more controlled drop. The Forfjord was so blunt and rounded (and heavy), it just seemed to drag and crawl along the bottom as we attempted to set.

For the listee who asked about the shipping to a specific zip code, If you contact me in a private message with a physical address to ship, I will provide the FedEX shipping. We use FedEX to ship the Super MAX but I need a physical address to get a quote. Sorry! If you do not want to use the private message feature on Trawler Forum, feel free to email me at steve@maxmarineproducts.com. Again, free Forfjord but pay the shipping.

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Old 07-13-2018, 12:46 PM   #173
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Isuspect the ForFjord frequently only sets one fluke. With the flukes practically “spread eagle” starting a set I would think both flukes entering the seabed smoothly at the same time would be unlikely. One would probably find a softer spot and start to penetrate. As it went down the other fluke would tend to rotate up .. eventually above the seafloor.
There’s a reason they look a bit like a Kedge or Yachtsman’s anchor .. they are. Imagine a ForFjord at 90 degrees. One fluke strait up one straight down. Might work well in a bottom covered w big rocks. But almost no fluke area so in a mud or sand bottom I can see why there are few followers of the ForFjord.

My theory above is based on my imagination but perhaps I’m an imagineer haha. But they are salty looking things and w a salty name like they have how could one fail?
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Old 07-13-2018, 06:00 PM   #174
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[QUOTE]One last comment...at least in this post about setting times. If one watches the numerous anchor testing videos, I have yet to see one allow the anchor to nap.[QUOTE]

Which doesn't make them very useful.

Quote:
there are several that do not require that to set and hold reliably. Why not use one of them?
As mentioned, they all can be made to drag. They may seem to "set" quickly... even crude anchors like CQRs and Deltas can do that (remember the Delta was/is marketed as the Delta Fast Set!). If you are not going to be there for more than an hour, then it's moot. Like my old buddy Trawler Phil used to say "Drop your anchor, let out your rode, pour yourself a drink", and this was a guy who anchored everywhere on the east coast and the islands using CQRs; perhaps the most marina-adverse boater I ever met. And he did it full time for something like 20 years.

Sure if you're in need of an anchor, why not pick a SuperMax, or one of the various other anchors du jour. I would today if in that position. Otherwise, why not save your money for valuable liquids like diesel fuel and learn to set the one(s) you already have?
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Old 07-13-2018, 07:04 PM   #175
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Single engine boaters might find the need for quick setting anchors in emergencies....
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:18 PM   #176
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Haven't heard any complaints on the performance of Bruce and copies in the heavy mud of the San Francisco estuary. Here, tidal currents and winds more often than not to first-time secure an anchor.
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:45 PM   #177
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A Bruce will slowly creep in SF bay mud. Not really that bad a characteristic unless you are going to be there for days.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:59 PM   #178
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Single engine boaters might find the need for quick setting anchors in emergencies....
Indeed,
My engine went down to an idle right in front of the rocks at Cape Caution on the mainland side across Queen Charolette Strait. Fairly big swell that day and an onshore wind of about 15 knots.
The engine never did quit then and we went on to anchor in Allison Harbour.

So yes a good quick setting anchor for my single engined boat is golden. My 400’ rode is part of the insurance my ground tackle provides. No guarantee of course that I will stay off the rocks but the odds are way better w a nice long rode.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:24 PM   #179
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I believe a lot of dragging is caused by powering down too soon and too aggressively. It's a good way to make any anchor design drag.
I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head there, as to why it is most of us with the new generation type anchors, tend to just drop, rest, and let them set themselves, with minimal if any, backdown. Their flukes are sharp, they weigh enough to penetrate well without a huge tug, and by allowing the slow set, you are not just jamming the fluke up with the bottom substrate. This is especially so with those still using concave flukes like the Rocna and Manson Supreme, which do tend to clog and not re-set so well, if sticky mud happens to get jammed onto the fluke by a 'hard' set.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:52 PM   #180
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Peter yes maybe the slow set helps an anchor not clog or clog less is a point that has merrit .. maybe not too.

The Supreme’s fluke is much flatter in the center than it is on the Rocna. It would seem the Rocna would pack in mud better and the turned up trailing edge should help pack in mud too. But I hear no complaints from Rocna users. ??? Perhaps the throat angle is wider on the Supreme and that’s the primary reason the Supreme has such great short scope performance. And the Mantus is or probably should be the worst of the worst as there’s bolts, nuts and protruding flanges to snag the substrate as it passes over the upper surface of the fluke. The cost of the breakdown feature. If I had one I’d cut all that stuff off and weld the shank on like most others.

But a Supreme set slowly may be the best of both worlds.

I’ve heard forever that a slow soak in set is better. Can’t imagine why though. An anchor is at such and such an altitude below the seabed. What’s the difference if it got there quickly or over more time? What’s different? An old wives tale? Could be. Is there a notion that if it takes more attention, care and time it’s got to be better. I suspect it may be something passed on over long periods of time having no credibility or factual function.

I’ve always set more or less fast but I take considerable time laying out the rode. I’ve had setting problems too. But most of those problems are because of my experimental anchors.

Peter can you actually say why slow setting is better or is it just “seems to work better” things. I’ve heard it from very knowledgable people in the industry. But if there’s something to it ..... what is it?
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