Anchor Depth/performance Reversals

[Delfin]

That one looks like galvanized steel to me. I didn't know they made them in steel. Mine is shiny SS. I might put mine on the trawler and see if it works. They were made to temporarily anchor flying boats, and it looks like you could bend them in more extreme use.



Actually I think Manson ripped off Rocna, as the Rocna roll bar seems to predate the Manson by several years. The Vulcan is a rip off of the Spade, which predates it by 15 years or more. The Ultra has been around awhile, a little newer than the Spade to which it owes something, but it does have some original thinking in it.

The story I heard was that Peter Smith took his design to Manson to build, but Manson told him they already had a roll bar anchor they were bringing out, so declined the business. Beats me, but all these folks rip each other off, with the exception of Sarca. Their Excel is truly innovative, and IMO as good as an anchor can get. The Ultra is a rip off of the Spade, but actually seems to do a better job than the Spade, at least in the tests I have seen.

 

[psneeld]

Would like to see actual years introduced before anyone can say with certainty that one company ripped off another.

And it still baffles me today how posters think the rest of the cruising world is anything like what they are used to. Even to the point of making factual sounding statements without exceptions. How people cruise based on geography is one thing, throw in all the other variables in how a skipper anchors and similarities can all but dissolve.

 

[Delfin]

Would like to see actual years introduced before anyone can say with certainty that one company ripped off another.

And it still baffles me today how posters think the rest of the cruising world is anything like what they are used to. Even to the point of making factual sounding statements without exceptions. How people cruise based on geography is one thing, throw in all the othe variables in how a skipper anchors and similarities can all but dissolve.

Not difficult to see the similarities between the Spade and the Ultra, or the Supreme and the Rocna. As near as I can tell from the Interweb, the Manson was released in 2003, about the same time as the Rocna, so who took whose design is uncertain in that case. Manson says Peter Smith ripped them off, Smith says the reverse. They should strip down to loin clothes and settle this like men.

 

[jimisbell]

Would like to see actual years introduced before anyone can say with certainty that one company ripped off another.

And it still baffles me today how posters think the rest of the cruising world is anything like what they are used to. Even to the point of making factual sounding statements without exceptions. How people cruise based on geography is one thing, throw in all the other variables in how a skipper anchors and similarities can all but dissolve.

So what you are saying is that no ones experience is exactly like yours. Yes, you are right, you are unique.

However I dont think that the implication that no one should speak of their experience because it is irrelevant to your current, personal experience makes sense either. We learn by sharing experience and as I have found over 60 years of boating, both power and sail, what was "normal" to me 60 years ago is NOT "normal" to me today. Our experiences DO change and it is nice to reach back to another persons revelations to make decisions about our current situation.

 

[psneeld]

just the opposite ....you keep missing my point.... long scope short scope ....I see the need for both at times..

I try not to come out with statements like "no need for".... as other places and boating situations could require different approaches that someone else is not used to or feels important.

whether anchoring, filtering, night lighting, and on and on....

 

[Nomad Willy]

Re the rip-off talk all anchors are a rip-off since someone found the perfect stone. But re the roll bar it was invented by a German gent named Bugle (SP?) and the anchor by that design is still available in Europe.
It’s performance is quite dependable but it’s holding power dosn’t match newer anchors.
The Vulcan IMO is so close to the Spade one could say they ripped it off. Remember when the Vulcan prototype came out and we all said it looked like a tractor seat and were intoxicated wit’s uglyness. But the similarity to the Ultra is more distant IMO. But who cares beyond the manufacturers? Manson and Rocna obviously took the Bugle design and ran. Probably after a patent ran out.
Delfin the inovative anchor from ARA is clearly the Sarca IMO. Not seen a test w the Excel included. Do you have and will you post? US or European w many other anchors included? The Davis plow anchor is very similar too but not in the US as far as I know. Also the Kobra in Europe is a hot anchor item. Kind of a high aspect ratio Delta. With much better performance.
Another inovative anchor is the Max. One could say it was related to the Bruce but it’s not that similar either. An excellent mud anchor and as far as I know most of the world not tropical is mud. With a Max bower and a good choice for a 2nd anchor one should be well set.

 

[DDW]

The story I heard was that Peter Smith took his design to Manson to build, but Manson told him they already had a roll bar anchor they were bringing out, so declined the business. Beats me, but all these folks rip each other off.....

Developments stemming from other anchors with new ideas are great. Straight copies don't add much. The Archive.org people allow us to explore this a bit. Feb 2005 is the first capture of Rocna.com, introducing the Rocna as we know it. Mansonanchors.com goes back to 2002, however until Jan 2007 all of the anchors shown on their site are copies of other anchors - Bruce, navy, Danforth, CQR, etc. In Jan 2007 they introduce their roll bar anchor, two years after Rocna has been marketing it. Given Manson's history of copying everything you can shackle to a chain, I'll side with Rocna. That and three dollars will get them a latte.

And I can remember the Bugel from the last millenium, so roll bars aren't new. The direction of evolution/copying/development seems to be headed the Spade direction by most.

 

[dhays]

just the opposite ....you keep missing my point.... long scope short scope ....I see the need for both at times..

I try not to come out with statements like "no need for".... as other places and boating situations could require different approaches that someone else is not used to or feels important.

whether anchoring, filtering, night lighting, and on and on....

I think I understand what you are getting at, and I agree. When I see statements like "7:1 scope or I move on.." it is obvious that the poster's cruising grounds are a LOT different than mine.



I have 300' of chain. It takes about 7' of that chain to go from the line attached to the hard point in the locker to the tip of my anchor roller. That roller is about 5 1/2' above the water. When I add a snubber or bridle I have a couple feet of slack in the chain. So unless I am anchoring in 36' of water or less, I can't get 7:1 scope. Fortunately, because of typical winds and relatively protected anchorages, it isn't an issue for me.


If I was in an area of skinny water, large and exposed anchorages, I'd likely be setting 7:1 much of the time.

 

[jimisbell]

I know it is ugly and it looks like there is no way in hell it could work WELL, but has anyone ever tested a Sliding Box folding anchor? It is intriguing, but not $500 worth of intrigue.

 

[jimisbell]

If I was in an area of skinny water, large and exposed anchorages, I'd likely be setting 7:1 much of the time.

And for me, the closest water over 100' deep is 80 to 90 miles off shore. So I use 7:1 except for a lunch/picnic stop. In the Caribbean I found a FEW places where the water was deep. But most of the time I can read the name on the anchor as it sits on the bottom and can easily dive, neked, to it.

 

[psneeld]

In anchorages 10 feet deep with tidal action and swing room of 100 feet or so and a 40 something boat..... plus 5 feet to the bowsprit....

...5 to 1 if lucky.... very common up and down the ACIW from Jersey to Florida....and full of boats during snowbird season.

In weather forecast to be more than 20 knots, looking for larger anchorages or marinas becomes a priority for me....but 95 percent of the time, the small or tight anchorages are great with 5 to 1, even 3 to 1 after you have a good set.

IF your ground tackle and technique is up to it.

For those that choose longer scopes, thank you for leaving me more anchorages....

 

[foggysail]

I'll try to be gentle here, but I strongly suspect a technique, not a hardware issue here. Anchoring is 80% technique, and I am being kind to hardware when I say that.

An 88# Delta held our much bigger, much higher windage boat (Hatteras 56MY) in a wide variety of bottoms and conditions along the entire eastern seaboard. Not to mention any number of other Deltas, CQRs and Danforth styles on various charters on both coasts. Patience was the key to getting a good set in sketchy bottoms with clocking wind or current. Any time I felt I wasn't getting a good set, it was because I had taken a shortcut, and ended up spending more time going back and doing it right. Perhaps powering down too soon, would be one guess as to what ails you.

NO need to be “gentle” I have thick skin. As to Deltas, their form is similar to that of a the original plow. There is a reason that a plow anchor is called plow. Maybe if my experiences with Delta’s was in soft mud the results would have been different. And as to patience, I was as I tracked our boat’s movement over a week......with our plow style anchor gently plowing across the anchorage.

Now if you’re a Delta lover, my 55 is sold but I am willing to give you a great deal on an almost new 88!

 

[markpierce]

An advantage of a weak bladder causing one to awaken several times a night for relief: there are several opportunities to check anchored position.

 

[caltexflanc]

NO need to be “gentle” I have thick skin. As to Deltas, their form is similar to that of a the original plow. There is a reason that a plow anchor is called plow. Maybe if my experiences with Delta’s was in soft mud the results would have been different. And as to patience, I was as I tracked our boat’s movement over a week......with our plow style anchor gently plowing across the anchorage.

Now if you’re a Delta lover, my 55 is sold but I am willing to give you a great deal on an almost new 88!

I'll stick to my assessment based on this reply.
Any poorly set anchor will drag, or "plow" in your parlance. It's not the so called "plow" design that causes it because that's not what it is really designed to do in the first place.

 

[foggysail]

I'll stick to my assessment based on this reply.
Any poorly set anchor will drag, or "plow" in your parlance. It's not the so called "plow" design that causes it because that's not what it is really designed to do in the first place.

And well set anchors can also drag. Some belong behind a horse instead of in front of a boat.

 

[markpierce]

And well set anchors can also drag. Some belong behind a horse instead of in front of a boat.

As with a plow?

 

[jimisbell]

An advantage of a weak bladder causing one to awaken several times a night for relief: there are several opportunities to check anchored position.

I dont have to rely on my bladder. When I go to bed I can usually see a pattern of lights on the wall or overhead if I am near civilization and will notice if they move. If there are no man made lights I will see the stars and though they move I can still tell if there has been a massive movement and I am very sensitive to the motion of the boat. I sleep very lightly at anchor so usually get a "light/star check" at least once an hour.


Then there is the occasion when a Tug goes by and shines his spotlight in my port....LOL Gets my attention very quickly, even if asleep.


My wife could sleep thru a hurricane.

 

[BruceK]

Bruce I always thought every roll bar was ugly like a farm tractor .. or worse. Appearance wise it changes anchors from anchors to implements. No the RB stays off. You said re the mod Supreme’s failure “Of course, every anchoring is pretty much a one off unique event, so it may not prove much either way.” yes. The wind was blowing 18 or so, was having trouble keeping the boat on station, it was late after a long run and there was a small spot in a rather large bay to anchor due to other boats, mooring buoys and a grass bottom. Just wanted to hook up and have dinner. Just wanted to get it over with. So I hucked out my go-to anchor for such occasions, that’s what else .. my 13lb Danforth that came w the boat in 1974. Hooked right up as always. Never leave home w/o it.

Eric, that is hurtful, my Super Sarca is a thing of beauty,and I`m sure Rex thinks so too. And Peter B.

Mind you, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". I`ll add another trite saying" Handsome is as handsome does", based on that I think the Sarca looks good.
We do agree that every anchoring is a unique event, which is why it is so difficult to analyze a failed anchoring, maybe even a successful one too. The wind, the current, the direction of either, the bottom, the mood of the skipper,etc,so many variables,and many more no doubt.
But surely if you want to know what effect the roll bar has,do something similar with it, and without it. That does approach a comparison test.

 

[FF]

While all the speculation is interesting , I have found "Bigger IS Better".

Its easy for me to sleep better with say a 60 lb anchor set than a "modern" 25lb anchor .

I prefer to choose an anchor by what my windlass can easily recover , and what fits the bow rollers .

No trendy watch fobs aboard , except for the dink anchor, aluminum Danforth copy.

50 ft boat , 12 tons displacement , 12ft air height , 60Lb, most anything works , 60H Danforth is 1st choice.

 

[ranger58sb]

Another inovative anchor is the Max. One could say it was related to the Bruce but it’s not that similar either. An excellent mud anchor and as far as I know most of the world not tropical is mud. With a Max bower and a good choice for a 2nd anchor one should be well set.

My experience with the SuperMAX has been very good, but we only started using it after we returned to the Chesapeake from our Florida tour... and our normal substrate is mud of various flavors ranging from firm to soft to slime.

FWIW, I first came across the thing in posts by "Capn Wil Andrews" in the old trawler list... maybe '98 or so... about some of the hurricane testing he'd been doing at the time. I suspect some of his stuff is still accessible in 'net archives somewhere...

Maybe if my experiences with Delta’s was in soft mud the results would have been different.

I'd guess: not. When we used a Delta on a previous boat -- 35' original Delta, 34' flybridge keelboat -- the anchor could let the boat "travel" with current or high winds. The first time that happened, though, we were seriously overloaded (~8 mostly 35-40 sailboats rafted on our anchor) so I didn't worry too much about it. Still, it happened a few more times when we were alone, too...

I'd have thought the heavier weights you tried should have worked better, but apparently not foolproof. And I wouldn't want to have to do a manual lifts with those heavier weights, in case our windlass crapped out...

While all the speculation is interesting , I have found "Bigger IS Better".

Its easy for me to sleep better with say a 60 lb anchor set than a "modern" 25lb anchor .

I prefer to choose an anchor by what my windlass can easily recover , and what fits the bow rollers .

Sounds like a "Which is better, 9mm or .45?" and my preferred answer was always high speed AND heavy weight.

So how about a 60-lb "modern" anchor?

Actually, I'm guessing that's pretty much what we have. Our SuperMAX anchor -- fairly "modern," near as I can tell -- is just at the upper limits of what I can (want to) lift manually if the windlass were to go south. Not sure the next model up would fit on our roller; the additional shank length might be a problem...

-Chris

 

[Nomad Willy]

BruceK wrote;
“Eric, that is hurtful, my Super Sarca is a thing of beauty,and I`m sure Rex thinks so too. And Peter B.“

OMG I’ve hurt my friends. Really sorry B, P and Rex.
That’s the one thing about anchor posting I hate. Too many people look at their anchor like a family member so it limits what one can say.
I was quite sure one or several SS (Super Sarca) users/owners refered to the SS as “agricultural looking” so I thought I was in the clear.

Now fasten your seatbelts.

The SS is the best setting and reversing anchor that you can presently buy new. Has less holding power than the top notch “new gen” anchors like Spade, Rocna and Manson Supreme. But it’s a better anchor as it does the most important thing (or things) better. And can do the holding power thing too by using a size larger. Most all the newer anchors and the Danforth have more holding power than most boaters can use. Opps .. one exception. Those that anchor in hurry canes. For a hurry cane I’d use the best holding power anchor I could find. But most of us don’t anchor in hurry canes so having a working anchor like a SS is perfect. But if I was to anchor in a hurricane and I had a 45lb Supreme and some nice guy came along and offered me a 60lb SS .. I wouldn’t hessitate at all.

But I only know of one anchor test that featured the SS. One test is not enough. Rex and his boys do beach pulls but that is not enough either. So in my opinion we really don’t know what the SS or Excel can do as they haven’t been featured in world class anchor tests. Re the holding power I’d buy either anchor but I’d need to buy sized to company specs. That would be oversized. But what we did learn about holding power in Steve G’s vid tests was positive. And more importantly the reports drifting back through the forum and elsewhere are all positive.

Positive is good but it’s not the same as a big anchor test done off a vessel in typical anchoring depths on typical bottoms. And with most of the most popular brands represented. The results graphically presented along w all the others so one can see how much better (or worse) one’s favorite and all the others do.

Is it fair or totally objective? No. Not totally.

But if an anchor manufacturer consistently sends his anchor to the major tests over time with an average of results the truths about anchor performance will become evident and given more and more time the objective truth about performance will emerge.

XYZ entered their anchor in a test and came out absolutely top dog. A stunningly great performance by a new anchor and company. The next test that I saw was just the opposite. The worst of the worst performance resulted. Obviously they didn’t R&D enough and the rep of their product suffered. First mistake was that what they submitted was not a working anchor type but a mud anchor. Anyway XYZ is afraid another bad report on their anchor would be like the sinking of the Bismarck. But their share of the market is still so small I haven’t seen an XYZ anchor on the bow or deck of a boat in the last 10yrs.
But if all the anchor manufacturers came boldy forth over years or many years the best performing products would be clear to see.

The above is of course my opinion and subject to change. Change of course if somebody presented evidence that it was not true.

Consider though that the Toyota cars have very consistently scored very high in car tests. Honda has suffered a bit from transmission problems in the past but Honda is definitely one of the top selling cars today. They hung in there and overcame their bad day at black rock .. so to speak.

 

[dhays]

But I only know of one anchor test that featured the SS. One test is not enough. Rex and his boys do beach pulls but that is not enough either. So in my opinion we really don’t know what the SS or Excel can do as they haven’t been featured in world class anchor tests. Re the holding power I’d buy either anchor but I’d need to buy sized to company specs. That would be oversized. But what we did learn about holding power in Steve G’s vid tests was positive. And more importantly the reports drifting back through the forum and elsewhere are all positive.

Maybe I need to plan a weekend trip to La Conner (or wherever Steve is based, I forgot) and let him borrow my Sarca Excel for a test.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Dave,
Lives in Port Townsend.
But he tested the Excel.

 

[jimisbell]

While all the speculation is interesting , I have found "Bigger IS Better".

Its easy for me to sleep better with say a 60 lb anchor set than a "modern" 25lb anchor .

I prefer to choose an anchor by what my windlass can easily recover , and what fits the bow rollers .

No trendy watch fobs aboard , except for the dink anchor, aluminum Danforth copy.

50 ft boat , 12 tons displacement , 12ft air height , 60Lb, most anything works , 60H Danforth is 1st choice.

I am with you there. I have a CQR, a Claw, and a Danforth. The first two are approx 50lbs the danforth about 25lbs. None failed me on my 44 foot 15 ton sailboat, none have a rollbar (may add one to the CQR just for grins)


As to pretty, I love Willys plow with the lace work on top. That, I would be proud to carry on the bow. It is beautiful. Dont know if it works, but it would be like a tiara on my Queen.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Re the modded Claw .....
Do you weld?
Or do you know a fab shop that does good work at reasonable prices? That was the case for me but the Claw-mod cost $200 to weld up.
All the other mods in the shop cost $20 to $40. So if the Claw fails I’ll probably try the holes as it’s just a bit of drilling. The drilling of holes in the Supreme was easier than I anticipated.

 

[jimisbell]

Re the modded Claw .....
Do you weld?
Or do you know a fab shop that does good work at reasonable prices? That was the case for me but the Claw-mod cost $200 to weld up.
All the other mods in the shop cost $20 to $40. So if the Claw fails I’ll probably try the holes as it’s just a bit of drilling. The drilling of holes in the Supreme was easier than I anticipated.

I have both Gas and Electric welding and a drill press and lathe. But if it cant be done on the ground I wont do it. Lifting the claw to the drill press would take at least two people to do it (operator and lifter). So welding wont cost me an arm and a leg. Bring your stuff down here and buy the rods and I will do it for you for free......

 

[BruceK]

BruceK wrote;
“Eric, that is hurtful, my Super Sarca is a thing of beauty,and I`m sure Rex thinks so too. And Peter B.“

OMG I’ve hurt my friends. Really sorry B, P and Rex.
That’s the one thing about anchor posting I hate. Too many people look at their anchor like a family member so it limits what one can say.
I was quite sure one or several SS (Super Sarca) users/owners refered to the SS as “agricultural looking” so I thought I was in the clear.

Now fasten your seatbelts.

The SS is the best setting and reversing anchor that you can presently buy new. Has less holding power than the top notch “new gen” anchors like Spade, Rocna and Manson Supreme. But it’s a better anchor as it does the most important thing (or things) better. And can do the holding power thing too by using a size larger...

Eric,you haven`t hurt anyone`s feelings. My post was intended to be ironic humor,though with a message. But not to be taken literally, and I`m very sorry you saw it that way. And thank you for the nice things you said about the SS, not perfect I`m sure, but a reliable good all round anchor.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Thank you thank you Bruce.

I hope Peter and Rex feel the same way. I’d really like to see the SS get out more .. as in anchor tests. Other than the setting don’t know much about the Excel but several of our members here are happy w it.

 

[Simi 60]

.

Bruce I always thought every roll bar was ugly like a farm tractor .. or worse. Appearance wise it changes anchors from anchors to impliments.

Who cares what they look like.
I buy based on performance, not appearance.

I will say though, if its purely there to roll and aid with setting, its got me stuffed why mine needs to go as large a diameter pipe as it has.
Haven't measured but it is 1 inch plus.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Are the Sarca anchors available in the U.S? I would guess new tarrifs increased the price?