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Old 02-06-2014, 10:49 AM   #21
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Secrets Peter? You're telling FF he's wrong because of secrets?

No secrets Peter .... Some mysteries though.

But I think you're right that most recently designed (I refuse to use the cutesy vogue buzz word) anchors are better at accommodating various bottom conditions and/or types. But there's no anchor that will work on all bottom types. Just work better. No anchor is good in mud for example and many don't set dependably or consistently. So you're both right to some degree.

And relative to surface area there are other variables like depth of penetration, bottom type, throat angle, shape of flukes, scope, rode weight and shank resistance. Shanks tend to lift the anchors as they move fwd and some like Danforths and Forfjords do a lot of that and impeded penetration. Many anchors penetrate quite a ways before the shank starts to lift like a CQR and a Claw. most newer designs have a hooked shank that allows some penetration before the lifting force of the shank starts. Claws have no lifting force until they have penetrated 6 or 8" (depending on size) because their shank is vertical up to that point.

But you (Peter) are wrong in that no anchor is good in soft mud or large rocks. One of the reasons the expression "bigger is better" has validity is that in the worst conditions bigger IS better. What you've said Peter is that design can overcome any obstacle .. and that's not so. Remember that the bottom IS the greatest variable.

FF has been saying no one anchor is good enough for 7 years. Why call him out on it now. I kinda have gotten used to it. And of course I agree to a certain extent. So you're both half right IMO.
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Old 02-06-2014, 11:56 AM   #22
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I know NONE of the new gen anchors are a suitable "wreck" anchor (well they are - ONCE)..and there are specifically designed "wreck" anchors....so I think if you buy an "old style" anchor that IS best for every bottom type and situation...you would be in a camp that I know of only one other TF member resides in...
I'm intrigued...what is a "wreck" anchor?
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:13 PM   #23
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I am the other TF member of course and I too have no idea what a wreck anchor is.

And I don't have many anchors to suit various anchoring situations. I'm kinda doing my own anchor test and analysis.
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:46 PM   #24
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While I don't use one and would argue against their use for lot's of reasons....lot's of people use them for anchoring on wrecks...

The home made ones are rebar bent though a length of pipe usually...
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:54 PM   #25
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Eric: I use a WM Performance here in South and Central Puget Sound where the bottom tends to be mud. Even with the 10-16 foot tidal swings it has held and pulls up thick quantities of mud as she comes up.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:35 PM   #26
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Seems to me that whenever these threads show up they are focused on the anchor rather than anchoring. While I do think that the Rocna and similar anchors are great for most conditions, and to an extent I agree with Fred that "bigger is better" (though not 470lbs for my trawler!!), I think most threads miss the real point that the anchor itself is often far less important than how much scope, line vs. chain, and anchoring technique. I often see vessels "anchored" with minimal scope (sailboats, especially with line) that are accidents just waiting to happen. I strongly recommend Earl Hinz's "Complete Book of Anchoring & Mooring".
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:51 PM   #27
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MvNoPlans,
Thank you. It was a total flop on an anchor test and I could'nt see why. That's why I tend to read between the lines on anchor tests. They often seem totally bent on making older design anchors look useless and the new ones look like miracles.

Speaking of miracles Chrisjs post puts more real world thoughts up front. Once you get a good bottom and good seamanship almost any anchor at all will hold fine in good weather and bad ... But very often not in extreme weather. I can pass cars well w my VW and could do it w a Corvette but as long as I can pass gracefully and safely w my VW I'll not need the Corvette. I'd rather buy a boat w all that money.

MVNoPlans what kayak is that? Looks like mine .. A Necky Kyook.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:37 PM   #28
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Chrisjs is right, there are many variables in anchoring, making comparison difficult. Every set has its own circumstances.
I will say that a newer design type, like PeterB`s, gives me noticeably better results than its plough predecessor. But maybe the plough was a little small...comparisons are tough.
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Old 02-07-2014, 06:08 AM   #29
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I received an advertising video that was so rigged that it showed a std CQR not being able to set on a sand beach!!!!!!

With 5 or 6 decades of world cruisers experience using CQR , the video had to be a masterpiece of FRAUD.

OR all those decades and thousands of satisfied users would be on the beach.

>What you've said Peter is that design can overcome any obstacle<

Peter is right good design can overcome ant obstacle ,,,,BUT NOT with a single anchor style !

IN rocky bottoms only the old style Herrishoff fisherman can grab enough for a good nights sleep.

Every one of the flyweight watch fobs simply bounce off the stones, and do not dig in.

I am told its similar in heavy kelp , but 20 - 40ft of kelp is uncommon on the east coast.
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Old 02-07-2014, 06:30 AM   #30
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Secrets Peter? You're telling FF he's wrong because of secrets?
I never mentioned secrets…you did
No secrets Peter .... Some mysteries though.
But I think you're right that most recently designed (I refuse to use the cutesy vogue buzz word) anchors are better at accommodating various bottom conditions and/or types. But there's no anchor that will work on all bottom types. Just work better. No anchor is good in mud for example and many don't set dependably or consistently. So you're both right to some degree...But you (Peter) are wrong in that no anchor is good in soft mud or large rocks. I never said that either….
One of the reasons the expression "bigger is better" has validity is that in the worst conditions bigger IS better. What you've said Peter is that design can overcome any obstacle ...No, I never said that…you did, but to some extent it's true... and that's not so. Remember that the bottom IS the greatest variable.

FF has been saying no one anchor is good enough for 7 years. Why call him out on it now. Because he's also been wrong for 7 years...I kinda have gotten used to it. And of course I agree to a certain extent. So you're both half right IMO.
Sorry Eric, you've lost me - I never said any of those things and I totally accept that there are some bottoms that one should never try to anchor on, because they just pull out, if it is very soft, or never really set, if rocky or solid. However all I actually said is, and I quote…

"so you really should be a bit more circumspect before just dismissing the fact that there are anchors now out there that are suitable for virtually every bottom."
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Old 02-07-2014, 06:44 AM   #31
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I received an advertising video that was so rigged that it showed a std CQR not being able to set on a sand beach!!!!!!
With 5 or 6 decades of world cruisers experience using CQR , the video had to be a masterpiece of FRAUD, OR all those decades and thousands of satisfied users would be on the beach.
Funny you should use that example FF, because in my experience with a CQR/Plow type anchor - suitably sized I might add - that is exactly what a hinged shank CQR/plow anchor does on firmish or weedy bottoms. It was after dragging in light wind and just a bit of current 8 times in a row, one time trying to get it to set properly I gave up - we moved on, and I ordered a new generation anchor the next week, and have never regretted it.

But hey, if folk want to keep on using less versatile anchors, so they need several different types for different bottoms, then that's their privilege...
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Old 02-09-2014, 09:59 AM   #32
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The point of a wreck anchor is the rebarb bars will catch the wreck and hold the boat in place while fishing. When ready to leave, the boat can power off and the rebarb will straighten out to release the boat. The rebarb hooks can be bent back to shape for the next trip.
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:36 AM   #33
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Sorry FF, but you are just flat out wrong there. That is just your experience. You have no experience with the more modern multipurpose anchors, so you really should be a bit more circumspect before just dismissing the fact that there are anchors now out there that are suitable for virtually every bottom. However, only members who have owned and used these are really able to confirm it. Let's hear from any of the owners of these new generation anchors if they would ever go back to one of the anchors you continue to tout. I'm waiting…. ok, the anchor scene has been bit dull lately, and he asked for it…
Well, there's the word from the Sarca quick response team. Rex has his teams well organized to pounce at the mere mention of an anchor. Just kidding of course. Rex seems a great guy as well as his anchors are top notch. I would love to have a Sarca Excel on my bow. Since not available here my next anchor will probably be a Manson Boss. Until then my Delta has been very reliable.
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:47 AM   #34
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Funny you should use that example FF, because in my experience with a CQR/Plow type anchor - suitably sized I might add - that is exactly what a hinged shank CQR/plow anchor does on firmish or weedy bottoms. It was after dragging in light wind and just a bit of current 8 times in a row, one time trying to get it to set properly I gave up - we moved on, and I ordered a new generation anchor the next week, and have never regretted it.

But hey, if folk want to keep on using less versatile anchors, so they need several different types for different bottoms, then that's their privilege...
That's what happed to me too just after I'd been telling my quests on board how great our 66 lb CQR had peformed up to that point. Maybe it knew we were talking aobut it

I ended up having to leave our anchorage in the middle of the night and do a 12 hour cruse in nasty winds and seas.

When $$$ come, I too, will add a Roncha, if nothing else to get Larry off my back

I'll post the details of that escapade soon enough.
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:56 AM   #35
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I new to this forum and looking for some advice.
My boat is a Grabd Banks 42 2003. I have a 30 KG Bruce anchor which is good if the bottom is right but drags over hard ground and weed.
Im thinking of changing to a Rocna 40 KG, does anyone know if it will fit into a GB 42 bow roller system?
I appreciate any advice you can give me
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:32 PM   #36
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Peter B,
Sorry I offended you .. Really I am and I'm looking to see if you're right.

You did use the word secrets in post #18 "The secret is how fast and how deep she digs in FF."

And you and others have been claiming the newer design anchors will function on any bottom for years. And this says or strongly implies that the design of these newer anchors overcomes all the deficiencies of older anchors not being able to handle certain bottoms. Soft mud and rocks are part of the bottom at times and you're implications is that the new anchors will work fine there.

I still think you and FF are half right on this matter. I've got my favorite anchor too Peter and it's never failed to set and hold nor have any other of my anchors most of them (about 2/3rds) are old to very old designs.

My post was not intended to be provocative in any way and I'm not through looking at it but don't think I said anything untrue about you or what you've said now or in the past.

You will notice I took your advice and stopped talking about short scope. Everyone's heard and that's enough.
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Old 02-10-2014, 06:31 AM   #37
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Funny you should use that example FF,

My example was that the ancient fisherman is required both for rocky bottoms and KELP, or other heavy grass areas.

Folks without a fisherman simply have to move on when faced with a tough bottom.

Big hassle with the fisherman is the tide can cause a wrap on the fluke that sticks up.

Almost as expensive as the watch fob anchors,

LUKE Storm Anchors - Paul E. Luke, Inc.

www.peluke.com/Storm_Anchors/anchorfall2005.pdf‎
You'll sleep easier with a Luke Three Piece. Storm Anchor ... Luke anchor is piece of mind you can buy, an ... traditional Herreschoff or “fisherman's style” anc
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:59 PM   #38
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FF I like old anchors too but I'm not about to shuck my 18lb anchors that have never failed for a huge 55 or 60lb anchor that's very difficult to deploy and requires assembly every use. For my nylon rode and hand deploy I draw the line at 35lbs. Did you see my new Danforth awhile back?

On a more typical trawler one could trade the chain weight for the big Kedge anchor if it could be mounted on the bow gracefully. But you're right it IS an option. I think the shanks are relatively easy to bend though.

But the storm anchor concept would IMO be only valid w a really big anchor. So far I've done 50 knot gales w anchors less than 20lbs.

Doesn't a Claw work well in rocks if it doesn't pick one (rock) up? That's why I took one to Alaska (in 2003) as I thought I'd be anchoring on rocky bottoms but don't think I ever found any.
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:37 PM   #39
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Doesn't a Claw work well in rocks ...?
The West Marine catalog says it does. I find the claw to work well in the heavy mud bottoms here.
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Old 02-10-2014, 03:57 PM   #40
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One of the reasons I bought the Claw on that AK trip is that I thought it looked strong enough to drag over rocks.

Re the big Kedge FF was talking about is spect'd for about a 55lb anchor for my boat and for yours I'm guss'in about 75lbs. How would one launch such a thing w that big stock bar crossways on the end of the shank?

55lbs .... I think is about right for my boat for general purposes for that anchor. They offer the anchor as a "storm anchor". Perhaps they mean 55lbs for a storm anchor. Wonder what they think is a storm? I think there are standards for that. I have downloaded another two sources for kedge anchors so SOMEONE thinks these Kedges are good. One is in bronze but only 22lbs. It's a herrishoff type Kedge and is beautiful.
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