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Old 11-15-2011, 02:36 PM   #21
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

Dude,

You took my post away. Yes and even if it turns on the bow roller it can't turn on the gypsy unless you manually do it. Also regarding Larry M's comment it's assuming that the 75 rotations will be all in the same direction. And as the Dude points out there's lots of time for the anchor to return the way it left on the way up. Re Walts swivel It may have the clearence to rotate on the anchor shank slot and avoid the side load all together. Thus not being a weak link at all. Just say'in.
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:21 PM   #22
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

My roller has a groove, but the anchor still seems to come up bass ackwards about 40% of the time. *The swivel I have is*made of 17 4 PH cast stainless and is*rated at 25,000# with 3/4" pins . *I called the company (Suncor) and asked if the rating was side load or straight pull and they said side load, so I haven't worried too much about it. *Additionally, the yield strength of 17 4 PH is greater than that of the anchor shank so I see it as an extension of, and not a weak link of the shank. *It is a much cleaner installation than shackles and allows me to twist the anchor around with a boat hook when it does come up wrong.
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Old 11-15-2011, 04:37 PM   #23
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

Thanks for all the input, you guys were busy while (most) Aussies slept. I`m using my ss. swivel as a paperweight at present.

"Nigel Calder`s Cruising Handbook" has a diagram showing a conventional galvanized swivel fitted using shackles, see p400.

I might try stopping retrieve and hanging the anchor a while to see if that helps the chain twist.I don`t have a groove in the bow roller though,it`s just a wide flat roller with raised ends.

Bruce K "Doriana"
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:58 PM   #24
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

I installed a swivel a couple of years ago to stop the chain kinking at about 40 metres. It helped for a while but now the kinks are back. I have tried dropping in deep water and retrieving but it doesn't cure the problem. The only way I have found is to lay the chain out on the marina and manually turn it to get rid of the kinks. This seems to fix it for a year or so.

After what I've read here, I think I'll remove the swivel.
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:10 PM   #25
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

Jeff,

I'm guessing your anchor rotates as it comes up. How else could it possibly twist up the chain? Is there a way to raise the anchor slowly?*Perhaps*another anchor woul'nt rotate as it comes up. Just think'in.

Eric
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:02 AM   #26
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

Eric, If our retrieve was any slower I`d be timing it with a calendar instead of a watch, I doubt the cause is fast retrieval. Twist is visible between roller and windlass gypsy.

Based on the posts I use my ss. swivel as a paperweight but I`d still welcome a solution. Running it out might be worth a try.

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Old 01-12-2012, 12:46 AM   #27
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

Quote:
BruceK wrote:
Twist is visible between roller and windlass gypsy.
Is there any chance there is a mis-alignment between the pulpit roller and the chain wildcat on the windlass?* I would think that a misalignment great enough to cause the chain to twist and kink would be really obvious but you never know.
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Old 01-12-2012, 04:48 AM   #28
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

"Is there any chance there is a mis-alignment between the pulpit roller and the chain wildcat on the windlass?'

There will frequently be a grove machined in the roller that keeps the chain from twisting

The deck fitting , that actually holds the boat while anchored will do the same thing , if the groove is missing on the bow roller.

If neither is present , shoot the surveyor.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:03 AM   #29
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Anchor Chain Swivels

The bottom line is that the gypsy will only pull up the chain the way it went down. Even if you shoot the surveyor.*But Bruce if you have twist between the bow roller and the gypsy a very strong twisting force must be present.......not likely to be caused by an anchor coming up very slowly. I have an anchor w a capstan and it is not aligned at exactly a right angle to the bow roller. My nylon anchor line pulls over to one side of the drum quite strongly. Since you can actually see a twist there that is extremely unlikely to be generated from forces from below I propose that the relationship between the bow roller and the gypsy is causing the twist. If the bow roller has no grove there will be a 90 degree twist in the rode between the bow roller and the gypsy because of the way the chain will lie on the bow roller. Get a new bow roller that has the grove that will align the chain to the gypsy. Perhaps your bow roller is for line and not chain. I have a bow roller w the groove and use mostly nylon line haha.

Eric


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Thursday 12th of January 2012 12:21:50 PM
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:19 PM   #30
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Anchor Chain Swivels

Quote:
FF wrote:

There will frequently be a grove machined in the roller that keeps the chain from twisting

The deck fitting , that actually holds the boat while anchored will do the same thing , if the groove is missing on the bow roller.

If neither is present , shoot the surveyor.
Grand Banks boats--- at least all the ones I've paid any attention to in this respect--- simply have flat rollers on the pulpit.* They have rims to keep the chain on the roller, but there is no groove machined into them.*

As to what the rode is held by, some people let the windlass take the strain, some people use a chain grab and short line cleated to the top of the windlass, and some (like us) use a snubber that's cleated to one or two deck cleats with the chain slacked off between the windlass and the snubber's chain grab.* None of these methods play any role in whether or not the chain can twist.

And, I should add, we don't use a swivel and we have never experienced a kink or twist of any kind in our rode.* If the boat has circled the anchor enough times to cause the chain to lie over itself, it all comes out as soon as the anchor is off the bottom.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 12th of January 2012 01:20:36 PM
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:26 PM   #31
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

Eric,

Thanks for your comments

The bow roller has a deep groove and at shallow depths there is no evident twist. At 40m or more there is a 1/2 turn twist between the roller and the chain*wheel apparent on the retrieve**The anchor is a 25Kg Delta, rode is all 1/2" chain. The twist in the chain causes problems at the windlass*as the chain*frequently jams in the hawse pipe. Windlass is a Nilsson vertical with a 10hp hydraulic motor. It runs at 3 sec*per meter. I wouldn't want it any slower.

Jeff b
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:31 PM   #32
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

Quote:
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The bow roller has a deep groove and at shallow depths there is no evident twist. At 40m or more there is a 1/2 turn twist between the roller and the chain*wheel apparent on the retrieve
*From your description, I wonder if your problem is being caused by that groove in your bow roller.* If it wasn't there, perhaps the chain would be able to better align itself with the wildcat on the windlass.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:45 PM   #33
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

That's what the groove is for is'nt it? To keep the chain centered and aligned to the gypsy? Marin I at least have no idea what "rims" are. Ben do the chain links fit on edge in the groove? How can the chain jam in the hawse pipe? The hawse pipe is directly after the gypsy is'nt it? The weight of the chain should straighten out the chain as it drops into the locker .....no? Is the 90 degree tube between the gypsy and the hawse hole designed for your chain size? Perhaps it's of a soft metal and has a worn groove that causes jamming of the chain. Just brain storm'in.

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Old 01-12-2012, 09:04 PM   #34
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

Eric--- See photo below.* The "rims" are at each end of the roller.* I suppose another term could be "flanges."* But there is no groove in the middle of the roller cylinder.* The roller at the forward end of the pulpit is the same.

Jeff---* It sounds like what you're saying is that the more chain you let out, the greater the twist becomes in the chain between the bow roller and the windlass wildcat.* Since your roller has a groove, which as Eric points out should in theory orient the chain in a manner identical to your wildcat, its sort of sounds to me like there is something funny about your chain.* If putting more tension/weight on it causes it to start to twist between the bow roller and the windlass-- a relatively short distance I assume--- it almost sounds like the links are deformed or improperly made so that somehow adjacent links are being forced a bit out of line where they connect, hence the twist under pressure but no twist with little or no pressure.
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:11 PM   #35
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

Marin, *Flange works and that's on a capstan.........not intended for chain so yes there will never be a chain groove on the drum. I had'nt thought of a deformed chain. Not likely though. Ben, When you are pulling up the rode and when you see a twist......if you straighten out the chain and pull some more rode does it twist up again?

Eric
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:29 PM   #36
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Anchor Chain Swivels

Eric--- We still might be talking about two different things. The rollers are what I am calling the thing at each end of the pulpit channel. The bronze roller in the upper right corner of my photo. The wildcat is what I call the chain wheel on the starboard side of our windlass. The gypsy is what I call the smooth drum on the port side of our windlass. I use standard logging terms for these two items--- other people use different names for them.

I think Jeff is saying that he has a groove machined around the center of his bow roller at the end of his pulpit. If I'm interpreting his description correctly, that groove should orient a chain link vertically with the link on either end of it horizontal. Same way the link recesses machined into the windlass wildcat position a chain. Since he says the chain is twisting between his bow roller and his windlass wildcat, both of which should be orienting the chain the same way, the only thing I could come up with that could cause the chain to twist out of alignment between the two is a deformed chain, as unlikely a scenario as that seems.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 12th of January 2012 11:30:35 PM
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:50 PM   #37
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

What's all this logging talk???

You've got a capstan on the port side of your windlass and a gypsy on the stbd side. A wild cat lives in the forest with the loggers. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. We could all look it up in CHAPMANS. The aft roller on your pulpit is an intermediate roller and the bow roller is out of sight.*

A deformed chain it could be but I would'nt bet money on it. But I can say for sure one of the reasons Ben is having problems is that he is using chain.

Eric
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:25 PM   #38
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Anchor Chain Swivels

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:You've got a capstan on the port side of your windlass and a gypsy on the stbd side.
*A gypsy is*the name used to describe a*smooth sided capstan drum.* The term capstan applies only to a vertical windlass--- that's the name of the whole unit, not the rotating drum.***A horizontal windlass is NOT a capstan.*

Here is an official definition for you that I found.

"Technically speaking, the term "windlass" refers only to horizontal winches. *Vertical designs are correctly called capstans

The wheels on either a vertical or horizontal windlass provide for either chain or line to be engaged. The wheel for line is termed a warping head, while the chain handling wheel is variously referred to as the gypsy (in the UK) or wildcat (in North America). For clarity in communication the generic term chainwheel is often used."

So I am actually not technically correct in calling the smooth drum on a windlass a gypsy.* I should be calling it a "warping head."* But "gypsy" is what a smooth drum is known as in a lot of other professions, including logging, so I will stick with that term unless i happen to remember "warping head" which I probably won't.

The term "wildcat"originated, by the way, from a description of what happens when chain runs away on the chain wheel.* "The thing turns into a wildcat, " or words to that effect.

Obviously you can call the components of a windlass whatever you want.* You can call the chainwheel a Zaphod Beeblebrox if you want to and the smooth drum on the other side a Trillian.* Makes no difference to anyone else except people who know what they're supposed to be called might misinterpret something you say about the operation of*a windlass.

Type "windlass wildcat" into Google and see what you see.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 13th of January 2012 12:59:05 AM
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:32 PM   #39
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:
*if you have twist between the bow roller and the gypsy a very strong twisting force must be present...... Since you can actually see a twist there that is extremely unlikely to be generated from forces from below I propose that the relationship between the bow roller and the gypsy is causing the twist

*



-- Edited by nomadwilly on Thursday 12th of January 2012 12:21:50 PM
*Eric,I think you have it. A few minutes spent looking and thinking showed the chain was twisting 90 degrees to go on the gypsy, compared with its position at the anchor shackle. The fix was embarrassingly simple, lift the chain off the gypsy,rotate it 90 degrees, put it back on. Result:straight run,no twist, problem appears solved.

For the record,the bow roller has no groove but has a flange each end; the roller and gypsy are well aligned.

Thanks to all for thoughtful advice and input. Bruce.

*
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:24 AM   #40
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RE: Anchor Chain Swivels

OK good.......sounds like we've done BruceK some good not without some effort but I'm pleased we've made some progress and perhaps solved the problem. Also we may have learned something.*

Speaking of learning something Marin did you look up that stuff in Chapman's? All my books are now packed up in boxes w tape around them so I can't access my references. I've heard of "warping head" but I've never heard of any boater using that expression. You did dig up someth'in I like .....chainwheel. I think you're right.....horizontal = windlass/winch and vertical = capstan. Nobody uses "chainwheel" (I wish they did) but I consider "wildcat" basically slang and I do'nt see any confusion that may result from using wildcat or gypsy for the chainwheel at least here on TF. As to the line (never rope on a boat) handling smooth drum on winches windlass's or capstans ....I cannot call them gypsies. According to your post the chain OR line handling "head" should be called the gypsy. I say not so. You can call the chain thing a wildcat if you want but I'll prolly use gypsy. No problem but calling a line drum a gypsy........no. Warping head is (I'm quite sure) correct but how many boaters will know what you're talking about??? Drum or line drum for both horizontal and vertical will produce by far the best communication on the float and here on TF. If you say "the windlass line drum" everybody will know what you're talking about. Last but not least ........I'd like to know what Chapman says. They do'nt call it the boating bible for religious reasons.

Eric
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