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Old 03-02-2015, 08:30 PM   #161
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OK, now we know where you got it, Art!
"it" - A BIG little Word!
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:05 PM   #162
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On the road with lousy wifi...anyone want to post the cost diff between chain and decent material rode?Its already been shown the weight between wet nylon and comparable chain in the locker isn't all that great, I'll bet neither is the price.
3.8" BBB is $5,91 a foot at 1.6 lbs, and 5/8" nylon is $2.00 a foot at .2 lbs dry. I doubt it would double the weight of the nylon for it to be wet if pulled under tension. I would estimate a savings of about two thirds in both weight and cost over chain. A significant number.
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:12 PM   #163
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How do you guys with 300 to 500 feet of wet rope in the boat keep the mildew rope smells at bay?
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:08 PM   #164
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I just bought 550' of 5/15 HT on defender for $1460 Thats $2.65 per foot.

1.17 lb per foot.

I do not think even wet nylon weighs that but I have no data to support that thought
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:21 PM   #165
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The 600' spool of 5/8" nylon I bought was also only $900, but those prices are right out of West Marine for reference only :-) The price difference between 5/16 and 3/8 was about $.50 a feet, so it's still just about double even after shopping for a deal. Of course prices depending on the size, type (chain grade and line, brait or braid)...
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:23 PM   #166
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Here's what a 5 year old well used line to chain splice looks like.



The frays have my attention, so I'll be learning how to resplice this in the coming weeks.
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:29 PM   #167
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Kevin I think that's about two times as much than Brait. Perhaps three times as much as three strand.

But cost has little to do w it I suspect. You should get on fine if the weight's OK fwd. With that nice anchor at great depths a trip line won't be much of an option. On that score you may have been better off w the SARCA and the trip slot. I'm sure you'll be happy w your gear.

Tom on my last boat where we put the rode in an anchor locker the nylon line did get a little stinky on our way back to Everett WA. On Willy it's kept in a ventilated box on deck.
There are the advantages of chain and advantages for line but what I'd like to establish is .. does the weight of chain insure enough catenary in a blow to significantly increase the performance of the anchor? It may and it may not. Catenary seems to be the main reason trawler men use chain and I'd like to know if it's justified. I've called the question twice now and recieved no justification. Is the catenary there when we need it or not?
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:31 PM   #168
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Al,
It looks like that splice dosn't go through the gypsie. Why don't you use a thimble or a larger shackle?
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:37 PM   #169
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Al,
It looks like that splice dosn't go through the gypsie. Why don't you use a thimble or a larger shackle?
Eric, the anchor is 120 ft down the chain. I had to stop the retrieve to get the picture of the splice. It runs through the gypsy just fine if I don't stop it.
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Old 03-03-2015, 12:10 AM   #170
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Catenary seems to be the main reason trawler men use chain and I'd like to know if it's justified. I've called the question twice now and recieved no justification. Is the catenary there when we need it or not?
Well, by the definition of catenary, it's there when you need it. The whole point is to keep the angle of pull on the anchor as low as possible. When the wind kicks up, what do the combination rode folks do to lower the angle of pull? Send a kellet down the rode.

All-chain rode has the kellet built in. It takes more pull to lift chain up than it does nylon rode.

That's the whole story right there. That and chain rode runs real nice through a wildcat so you can have the convenience of powering the anchor and rode out and in with a button and you don't have to tail a rope rode off a line gypsy.

It's not a question of catenary being there when you need it. It's a matter of the catenary being there, period. When you need it is when it's there. When you don't need it there isn't any. The chain drops straight down to the bottom and then goes across the bottom to the anchor.
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Old 03-03-2015, 07:04 AM   #171
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How do you guys with 300 to 500 feet of wet rope in the boat keep the mildew rope smells at bay?

When we coastal cruise the nylon is simply laid figure 8 on deck as it comes in.

This gets it dry and there is no stink below.

It is easy to drop with no coming up from below hassles as rope or chain can have.

We seldom take green water on the fore deck , so mostly its not even lashed down.

THe bow roller stows the anchor , a chain stopper holds it on board , the hyd capstan brings it on board , almost effort free.

"It's not a question of catenary being there when you need it. It's a matter of the catenary being there, period"

Sadly I must disagree , in a blow the chain can become bar tight ,it just takes a bit of wind or wind and a sea to get to ZERO stretch, and huge shock loads.
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Old 03-03-2015, 07:18 AM   #172
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Catenary is clearly good and helps set anchors. No doubt in my mind. But if an anchor sets fine w no chain at all having it for that purpose is pointless.

Ah. Fair enough, if that was their original point, I get that. I could also easily add "or with only very little chain after the anchor" or some such wording, too.

FWIW, we use a combination rope/chain rode. Enough chain, but on purpose minimized because of the time/effort it takes to clean the mud out as we bring it all back aboard.

On a separate tangent, I've begun to think about a short length of cable between the chain and the anchor. Doubt it would solve much, though. Cable likely wouldn't work on our gypsy, so it's have to be only a couple feet long... and the remaining chain would still pick up boatloads of mud, as it does now, from just laying there on the substrate.

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Old 03-03-2015, 08:33 AM   #173
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How do you guys with 300 to 500 feet of wet rope in the boat keep the mildew rope smells at bay?

When we coastal cruise the nylon is simply laid figure 8 on deck as it comes in.

This gets it dry and there is no stink below.

It is easy to drop with no coming up from below hassles as rope or chain can have.

We seldom take green water on the fore deck , so mostly its not even lashed down.

THe bow roller stows the anchor , a chain stopper holds it on board , the hyd capstan brings it on board , almost effort free.

"It's not a question of catenary being there when you need it. It's a matter of the catenary being there, period"

Sadly I must disagree , in a blow the chain can become bar tight ,it just takes a bit of wind or wind and a sea to get to ZERO stretch, and huge shock loads.
Good input.
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Old 03-03-2015, 08:36 AM   #174
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There are the advantages of chain and advantages for line but what I'd like to establish is .. does the weight of chain insure enough catenary in a blow to significantly increase the performance of the anchor? It may and it may not. Catenary seems to be the main reason trawler men use chain and I'd like to know if it's justified. I've called the question twice now and recieved no justification. Is the catenary there when we need it or not?

The answer is... It depends. More specifically on the scope ratio, the "wet" weight of the chain, the current and the the wind loading on the boat.

If the catenary disappears you need to let out more chain.

The producers of distant shores actually just filmed part two of their anchoring episodes last week where they experiment with catenary.

http://www.distantshores.ca/boatblog...-anchoring.php

The short version is that the catenary leverage factor is half your scope ratio. Although scope ratios greater than 7:1 have diminishing returns with respect to the rodes's angle the catenary forces are increased dramatically.



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Old 03-03-2015, 09:06 AM   #175
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Catenary seems to be the main reason trawler men use chain and I'd like to know if it's justified.
Without actually taking a poll with trawlermen, we can't possibly know why they prefer chain. I suspect, however, that it has nothing to do with catenary but does have a lot to do with less abrasion and holding power of the anchor. (weight)
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:08 AM   #176
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The answer is... It depends. More specifically on the scope ratio, the "wet" weight of the chain, the current and the the wind loading on the boat.

If the catenary disappears you need to let out more chain.

The producers of distant shores actually just filmed part two of their anchoring episodes last week where they experiment with catenary.

Sailing Blog - Technical Hints and Tips - Sailing Videos

The short version is that the catenary leverage factor is half your scope ratio. Although scope ratios greater than 7:1 have diminishing returns with respect to the rodes's angle the catenary forces are increased dramatically.

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Fortress Anchor's available greater shank to fluke angle would increase fluke setting ability in accordance to any catenary offered by a chosen type of rode product or its provided scope offered. After all... increased catenary provided to rode attached to anchor is specifically for making better angle for anchor's flukes or plow to angularly dig into the bottom.

Could be said for anchoring: Angle of the dangle is directly proportional to hypotenuse of the square! - LOL

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Old 03-03-2015, 10:21 AM   #177
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Angle of the dangle is directly proportional to hypotenuse of the square! - LOL
I thought the correct formula was something like:

The angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the
meat times the square of the hair divided by the mass of
the ass.
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Old 03-03-2015, 10:26 AM   #178
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I thought the correct formula was something like:

The angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the
meat times the square of the hair divided by the mass of
the ass.
And of course... roundness of the pound-ness on gals upper torso!
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Old 03-03-2015, 10:34 AM   #179
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Great responses. Looks like we're getting a grip on something useful.

The Distant Shores link has some very useful stuff in it but it often sounds like a commercial for Rocna anchors. It may not be 100% objective but then our anchor tests aren't either. I would think if one is to test short scope anchoring using an anchor that has been tested by others to be lacking in short scope performance seems odd. Perhaps Dashew dosn't speak English well as his sentence structure is strange. But hey .. nobody else (that I know of) is doing (testing) as he does so I'm very interested in his "Distant Shores" copy.
He says anchoring at SS (short scope) it's beneficial to use chain. To me SS would have very very little catenary and very long scope would have lots of catenary. So if chain is beneficial re cat it's (by far) most beneficial at SS. At long scope cat is not even needed .. it would seem.

Al stupid of me to have assumed otherwise.
Marin, almost nobody in the world uses Kellets. I made one and have never used it. ?? "All-chain rode has the kellet built in" Indeed .. that's what wer'e talking about. Does it or does it not? "don't have to tail a rope rode off a line gypsy." What on earth does that mean?
FF, There's a fisherman in Alaska (ironically w a Navy pers boat) than does the figure eight routine.
Cafe thank you so much for bringing something that looks like it could be genuine testing on the cat question. I'm reading and wondering.
Walt, "Why chain"? Indeed and I think it has most to do w cat and it's benefit to holding power. 90% of the anchor talk has always been about holding power and if cat is typically present it should/would increase holding power.
Art, Very few anchors have the angle dangle adjustment. But all anchors are a bit different as to throat angle. The built in throat angle has a lot to do w anchor performance and it's my opinion that wide throat angles promote good short scope performance. Not that simple of course though.
Gotta run
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Old 03-03-2015, 10:36 AM   #180
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When we coastal cruise the nylon is simply laid figure 8 on deck as it comes in. This gets it dry and there is no stink below.
Oh the joys of boating in a dry climate. In the PNW not so fortunate, except in other ways of course.
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