All chain rode versus rope

[psneeld]

The best part of the story...was the chain parted but he was confident in his Bruce Anchor....


I love it when a plan comes together.


Didn't see WHY he thought his chain parted...but the next time I'm in 185 knots winds...I woun't trust my chain either...I'll go for a combo rode cause I doubt chafe will be an issue...

 

[Art]

Boats 28 to 40 feet long

For many reasons and most circumstances; I recommend:

Applicable size/style anchor attached to 12' chain with line there after.

Ez-Pizie!

 

[psneeld]

Not for this 39.4 footer...all chain all the time...

But for the cheap seats...with a snubber..all chain IS a combo rode...

 

[AKDoug]

Remember Yale's site is advertising as well as informational. Their claim that their brait absorbs 75% more energy than laid line means it would stretch that much more. Other information I have read says that brait stretches LESS than laid line, and absorbs less energy. Stuff sure packs pretty in a glass box though!

 

[Codger2]

The "braid" line takes up less room than chain......

My apologies...I meant "brait."

 

[FlyWright]

Other information I have read says that brait stretches LESS than laid line, and absorbs less energy. Stuff sure packs pretty in a glass box though!

Yes, it seems it stretches less than the 3-strand. My 5/8 Brait is also a bit heavier line than the original 3-strand twist which I think was 1/2 inch.

It sure packs nice and pretty in my anchor locker, too. I love the stuff and would not use anything different on my combo rode.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Obviously I agree w you Art as that's what I do most all the time. But like the SE Alaska fishermen I put 3 or 4' of heavier chain next to the anchor and the other 8 or so feet (smaller) between the heavy chain and the line. I have 430' of Brait snd I haven't turned it around yet. I may cut 100' off. Then I could probably get my Supreme anchor in the box w the rest of line.

We talked about weight and catenary several years ago and somebody said that the ideal place for weight for attaining the flattest rode possible was about 20% of the way up the rode from the anchor. Of course it would vary w scope and rode length to some degree. I'll bet this is true and so some benefit could be had if I was to turn my chain around so the smaller chain was connected to the anchor and the heavier part connected to the line .. as in swap ends. And I suppose the best place for a Kellet would be as described above .. 20% of the way up the rode.

But if the catenary actually disappears in a big blow and the chain isn't affecting the catenary, then the reason for having chain to increase catenary is pointless. Many have said the catenary disappears at some point. But even if it just gets very small extremely little benefit would result.

 

[Codger2]

But for the cheap seats...with a snubber..all chain IS a combo rode...

Damn good point!

 

[psneeld]

Damn good point!

It has been stated numerous times by many...never seems to do any good.

 

[ancora]

I just showed the Sicilian 5/8" brait on the internet and she is all for it. Not only will we get rid of the perpetual rust stain from the chain locker weep hole, we will also lose 600 pounds off the bow. The Sicilian says, "Grazie Mille."

 

[ksanders]

I just showed the Sicilian 5/8" brait on the internet and she is all for it. Not only will we get rid of the perpetual rust stain from the chain locker weep hole, we will also lose 600 pounds off the bow. The Sicilian says, "Grazie Mille."

I would implor you to try out a line rode in your windlass prior to discarding your chain if you have not already.

The reason I say this is that my Muir Cougar windlass might be rated for combo rode, and it might have a combo gypsy, but it won't actually reliably haul the line portion through the gypsy. It takes the capstan to do that.

 

[FlyWright]

Also, check with your windlass mfr to verify the recommended Brait size. I was advised to upsize the line by one size for my Lewmar PS1000 windlass. I went from 9/16 3-ply to 5/8 plait.

I had to have a diver cut 30 ft from the rode after a "bad anchoring event". Suffice to say, it's a loooong story. That segment has become one of my favorite dock lines.

Oh, c'mon...admit it. We all have a favorite line, right?

 

[Codger2]

The reason I say this is that my Muir Cougar windlass might be rated for combo rode, and it might have a combo gypsy, but it won't actually reliably haul the line portion through the gypsy. It takes the capstan to do that.

I had a similar problem with my Muir 1200 VRC that I wrote about on this forum and it was solved by using a larger diameter line. I would suggest getting a 15-20 ft length (or more if you can) and feed it into your windlass. Stand on the dock with the other end and brace yourself as your wife hits the windlass control to reel you in.If the line slips, go to the next bigger size. If it doesn't slip and pulls you toward the bow, you have the right size.

 

[Codger2]

Also, check with your windlass mfr to verify the recommended Brait size. I was advised to upsize the line by one size for my Lewmar PS1000 windlass. I went from 9/16 3-ply to 5/8 plait.

The biggest problem of a combination windlass slipping is the use of the wrong size anchor line. Go bigger!

 

[markpierce]

It depends on the boat's characteristics. On previous boats, all sailboats weighing four tons and less, a combination chain and rope rode made sense. But with my 14-ton motor vessel, all chain works. And if I needed more rode than 200 feet, the boat could easily handle 50% and even 100% more chain as the vessel tends to be stern-heavy anyway.

 

[ranger58sb]

But if the catenary actually disappears in a big blow and the chain isn't affecting the catenary, then the reason for having chain to increase catenary is pointless. Many have said the catenary disappears at some point. But even if it just gets very small extremely little benefit would result.

Not sure I follow your point.

With all chain, catenary will be present in light to moderate to some heavier winds... even if in the latter, catenary comes and goes. With all rope, catenary might be present in light winds, sometimes in moderate winds, maybe not at all in heavy winds. With a combo rode and depending on chain length/size/etc., catenary will fall somewhere in between.

But just 'cause it "disappears at some point" that doesn't seem like a reason to voluntarily lower the disappearance point.

???

-Chris

 

[Nomad Willy]

Ranger,
I think it started a long time ago by Peter Smith or Dashew saying that catenary didn't count because when the wind really blew the cat disappeared. I personally think there will always be some small amount of cat even w a light chain but all chain cat becomes so small that it probably won't have any affect on anchor performance.

So one would probably have much more anchor performance just by getting a better anchor. Of course it's hard to know just what anchor is better. Better in weed, better in holding, better in mud, better at short scope, better on rocky bottoms ect. But if you get duplicate of the anchor you have it's guaranteed it will be better. Most likely that's the source of the "bigger is better" bandwagon.

The question re this thread is .. does the anchor performance benefit enough with an all chain rode to justify the expense and requirement to carry an extra several hundred pounds of weight on the bow to justify the chain? We carried a full sized spare tire in the trunk wherever we went until someone questioned if it was necessary .. and then we got the donut. But our cars perform better.

 

[ranger58sb]

Ranger,
I think it started a long time ago by Peter Smith or Dashew saying that catenary didn't count because when the wind really blew the cat disappeared. I personally think there will always be some small amount of cat even w a light chain but all chain cat becomes so small that it probably won't have any affect on anchor performance.

Seems to me "doesn't count" is an odd way to look at it. Seems to me it counts (helps) until it's gone. And it's usually going to be gone earlier with rope or combo before it's gone with all-chain.

Seems to me saying catenary doesn't count is the same as saying chain is only good for abrasion mitigation down near the anchor.

Don't know that I've read anyone else espousing something like that?

-Chris

 

[sunchaser]

Well Kevin, it looks like you screwed up big time in getting a good anchor windlass and all chain rode. But, at least you are in good company.

By the way, as has been known for centuries, rope rode internally abraids away as it picks up dirt and sand. New rope WLL starts degrading from anchor drop 1, so how does the time for replacement get established? My sail boat racing experience remembrance has sheets getting replaced frequently, and they are not lying on the rocky sandy bottom.

 

[ksanders]

Well Kevin, it looks like you screwed up big time in getting a good anchor windlass and all chain rode. But, at least you are in good company.

If I'm going to be wrong, at least I'm not going to be wrong alone!

 

[ancora]

Our windlass has both a chain gypsy and a rope drum, so I don't see a problem goin' over to Brait. Eliminating the "chain pyramid" would make de-anchoring a lot easier.

 

[Codger2]

The windless will handle both chain and rope.

It just dawned on me that you do not have a combination chain & rope windlass. It's beginning to sound like what you have is an all chain windlass with a capstan! (Which you are calling a drum.) Is that correct? knowing exactly what make & model windlass you have would answer a lot of questions & steer you in the right direction.

 

[ksanders]

Our windlass has both a chain gypsy and a rope drum, so I don't see a problem goin' over to Brait. Eliminating the "chain pyramid" would make de-anchoring a lot easier.

Thats the system we have right now.

You should try it out. We have for several seasons and it is most unplesant.

You might find different, but for me it was unpleasant enough that I bought a new windlass, an all chain rode to go with it.

 

[Art]

Some good points about rope to chain to anchor (especially on small to mid sized pleasure craft):


- Much lighter in bow; especially when stocking considerable long lengths
- Way easier to handle when any type hand effort is required
- Easy to quickly visually inspect; determining if rope is worn in any place
- Relatively inexpensive to replace in total on systematic-date basis
- Upon replacement - previous rode becomes good dock lines!


There are draw backs too - - but - - I'll let the "chain rode" luvers point those out.


Happy Rode Daze! - Art

 

[Nomad Willy]

Per this thread I'm not talking about rode being "gone" or abrasion resistance and picking up dirt.

Is there enough catenary to do enough good when it's needed or not? Enough good to warrant all that weight and expense?

Catenary is clearly good and helps set anchors. No doubt in my mind. But if an anchor sets fine w no chain at all having it for that purpose is pointless.

But I don't think skippers here have all chain to set their anchors. They have it for convenience and to help hold the boat when it blows hard thinking there's enough catenary in high winds to allow the anchor to hold the boat whereas without the heavy chain the anchor would fail for lack of catenary.

The winches that can handle both chain and line on the same rode w/o switching drums for gypsies is a very recient thing on the market. An all line rode for a larger boat being impractical all chain became the norm. Now that there is the choice (combo or all this or that) the need to have all chain may no longer apply. And if only a small amount of chain like Chapman recommends is all that's needed everybody should know.


Good point about wear Tom but chain rusts and it may rust faster than line wears from abrasion. ancora needs to replace his chain rode because of rust and several others have aluded to this same issue talking about getting their chain re-galvanized ect. But what say you about catenary? Wasn't it Dashew or Smith that said catenary disappears in strong winds?

 

[ancora]

We have an Ideal anchor windless, power up only. The only time we anchor is on raft-ups, four times a year and even then, at the raftmaster's discretion, we use a stern anchor only.

 

[FlyWright]

I'd think twice about changing any system that required me to use a rope drum/capstan to retrieve the anchor. Think of the labor and the mess on the foredeck. Weeds, mud, grass on the deck and the saltwater muck flowing along the gunnels. No thanks. Been there, done that. Ain't gonna do it again.

If you only anchor 4 times per year, why change a thing? Rusty chain isn't the worst thing you can experience in anchoring.

 

[funangler]

The biggest problem I have with an all chain rode is how do you lift it when your windlass breaks or jams badly. I lifted 70ft of chain with a anchor hang off it it was like 300# total dead weight and add little boat bounce for good exercise. I will never go back to all chain rode if it was any deeper I would have to cut it loose. My stern anchor is all 3 strand with a small fortress I can swim it out if I need to. That anchor holds very well with no chain.

 

[Wxx3]

I would imagine abrasion would be extreme at the thimble and shackle with no chain. I used 1/2 the length of my boat as a guideline, but will be moving to 1 1/2 times the length when my windlass is installed. I do a lot of anchoring on short scope in deep water during calm weather patterns, and I think the weight compensates for lack of scope. Sometimes the middle of the bay with a breeze beats shallow sets with bugs

I think the chain keeps the rode from tangling on the bottom in current and tide changes, getting the rode away from the anchor.

Bingo on those points.

If you anchor is set, the neck is being pulled thru the bottom, whatever the bottom is made of. Thus the observation on the famous anchor test this past summer of having cable (wire( instead of chain connected to your anchor. I would probably do it, but for for the windlass, as I have an anchor lock and I like the chair on the wildcat, plus my bungee cord.

I have 400' of chain. I don't want more because I think that should I need to anchor in deeper water, I would use rode at the end, if for no other reason than, why put my windlass thru the effort of hauling 6 or 800' of chain. At at point it won't help the anchor, so why take the chance (that the windlass dies and you are hauling my hand).

Lastly, for those who doubt the catenary effect. I hear you, but have you ever seen your chain underwater in 20 knot winds?

 

[Marin]

Lastly, for those who doubt the catenary effect. I hear you, but have you ever seen your chain underwater in 20 knot winds?

Have you ever seen a nylon rode underwater in 20 knot winds.

No, you're correct and it can take considerably less than 20 knots to pull much or most of the catenary out of an all-chain rode. Hence our very long V-bridle snubber.

One of the reasons Id like to install a proper wind speed/direction sensor at the lower helm is that for the typical recreational, part-time boater, including us, wind is almost always blowing slower than we think it is.

We'll be on the boat in its slip on a windy, blustery day and are convinced the wind is blowing 20 or even 30 knots with gusts even higher based on the sound and feel. So we'll get our handheld wind speed instrument and climb up on the flying bridge steps and hold it into the full force of the gale and find that the wind is screaming by at by at...... 12 knots. With an occasional bump up to 15.

Very disappointng.