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Old 02-08-2015, 10:17 PM   #81
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I have metal pulling equipment available.

So basically we have one step ahead, but what will we really know after we break it?

The comparison of the splice strength to that of the line is as much information as we could gain.

My opinion is that the value of a good visual inspection is not to be underestimated. Use the appropriate splice and look at it carefully. In my experience with boat lines there will be plenty of signs that is time to do something long before there is a failure. The flexibility of the line adjacent to the splice getting stiff would be another thing to keep an eye on.

If anyone really wants to proceed with this give me a shout.
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Old 02-09-2015, 01:26 AM   #82
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Yes, but Eric, we anchor with a 5:1 to 7:1 scope rather than the 1.5:1 scope you keep trying to use. So there is very little chain in the "upper half" of our rode. Sometimes almost none.
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Old 02-10-2015, 01:36 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by SaltyDog View Post
I have metal pulling equipment available.

So basically we have one step ahead, but what will we really know after we break it?

The comparison of the splice strength to that of the line is as much information as we could gain.

My opinion is that the value of a good visual inspection is not to be underestimated. Use the appropriate splice and look at it carefully. In my experience with boat lines there will be plenty of signs that is time to do something long before there is a failure. The flexibility of the line adjacent to the splice getting stiff would be another thing to keep an eye on.

If anyone really wants to proceed with this give me a shout.
That's great, Salty Dog. Is it capable of measuring and recording the tensile strength on calibrated equipment?
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Old 02-10-2015, 02:56 AM   #84
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Raised the splice issue with two cruisers (both circumnavigators) who have chain/rope rodes. Both used thimbles and schackles for safely. Now they are unusual as the chain/rope rode was a 2nd rode/anchor used for anchoring deep and they have a primary anchor with all chain rode. Got to hear stories of anchoring in 100 feet of water with 600 feet of line out.
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Old 02-10-2015, 08:51 AM   #85
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That's not how it's done with 8-ply plait or on a windlass that handles line and chain. What good is a splice if the windlass can't handle it? If you want your windlass to function on both chain and line, don't splice it like Mule is recommending.
=======================================

Just to be clear, I am not reccomending anything, especially since I'm looking for answers. I looked online and saw this weave method. It is paramount that my chain to rode flow through my wildcat. The weave looked as if there would not be small wear spot, that was the only benefit, otherwise I just as soon do a conventional splice. I did a search to see how to splice 8 plait and the site popped up.

I was a boatswain mate in the Navy, just after going from sail to steam. Spliced a lot of line. We did not use anything this small and we never went from chain to nylon rode and I do not remember seeing any 8 plait. I do not know if the wildcat will grip the chain-rode weave. Apparently you know, from experience or from some else's experience that the nylon will not allow the chain to be grabbed by the wildcat. If that what you are saying I would rather save the time and use a conventional splice? I did not see this addresses on the site.

So FW, you do have knowledge of the weave not being compatible?
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Old 02-10-2015, 09:10 AM   #86
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Attached are directions for splicing 3-strand and 8-plait rope to chain, compliments of Maxwell.
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File Type: pdf Rope to chain splice, Maxwell.pdf (43.4 KB, 43 views)
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Old 02-10-2015, 09:17 AM   #87
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I think today I will splice my brand new 8 plait the Fly Wright, Larry and Maxwell suggested way, if the weave method would work better then it would be so stated. I have a new 100 watt Maxwell. I will defer to another to reinvent the wheel....thanks for the redirection.
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:21 PM   #88
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If there is one Al you should be able to find it here. Testing Services in Northern California (CA) on ThomasNet.com

If you have a friend at CalTrans I think their primary test facility is near Sacramento and they are capable of performing the test.
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Thanks, Craig. I sent a request for info to Testing Engineers. The cost might be prohibitive, so I'm still interested in any TF members or Commercial Members who have access to facilities to conduct this simple tensile test.
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If the cost turns out to be prohibitive and nobody here has a facility let me know Al. We may be able to do a little crowd funding effort as it would be nice to see "real world" test results on quality used equipment.

Thanks for volunteering your splice.
I got a reply from Testing Engineers. I doubt even "crowd funding" would be sufficient to pursue this.

"Thank you for contacting us for your testing needs. We have performed similar tests in the past, and have a few questions to ensure testing performed meets your expectations.

Are you able to splice the rope onto itself to form a loop that we can use for testing?
Do you have a fixturing method in mind to ensure that the chain is axially loaded?

We anticipate a cost of at least $1,000 to machine fixtures and conduct the test. We also welcome you to come to our offices to speak about this project, to sort out how you envision testing this product."


I told him thanks for the reply but the cost was too high for a matter of curiosity. Still hoping we have a source 'in house' who could assist in our little experiment. Hopefully, Salty Dog will have the measuring equipment and recording capability required for the test.
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Old 02-10-2015, 05:44 PM   #89
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I think today I will splice my brand new 8 plait the Fly Wright, Larry and Maxwell suggested way, if the weave method would work better then it would be so stated. I have a new 100 watt Maxwell..
Is that a typo for 1000w, or maybe 100Amp ? My re-engined Muir is 1200w, motor was replaced with current model type.
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Old 02-10-2015, 06:13 PM   #90
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Good eye Bruce, 1000 watt horzonal, I left out a 0.

I spent the afternoon splicing the chain to 8 plait 5/8.... That was a job, far tougher than standard 3 stran nylon or Sampson braid. I hate to even think about 12 plait.
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Old 02-10-2015, 08:35 PM   #91
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Good eye Bruce, 1000 watt horzonal, I left out a 0.

I spent the afternoon splicing the chain to 8 plait 5/8.... That was a job, far tougher than standard 3 stran nylon or Sampson braid. I hate to even think about 12 plait.
Got a pic of what it looks like when done? How does it pass through your windlass?
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Old 02-10-2015, 08:43 PM   #92
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Tomorrow, I gotta soak the new rode, I have yet to burn the frizzies. The whipping is done. Have not tested it through the windlass yet, got dark..
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Old 02-11-2015, 01:28 AM   #93
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Poop Sanders, that's all I've got to say, poop! It's was actually a very nice day for prawning then the fog rolled in, then out. Maybe tomorrow.

I have 100' of chain and 300' of 3/4" nylon braid. I'd put all chain on there but it won't fit on my drum.
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Old 02-11-2015, 03:08 AM   #94
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How does it pass through your windlass?
There is an alternative to Rope chain splice shown in Maxwell link. See here:

8-Strand splice Page 2 | Sail Magazine

This sort "running" splice seems to generally produce a better transition although obviously Maxwell disagree. Maybe try both and see which works best with your gypsy.

Maxwell have patented a special "wave design" of gypsy to handle both rope and chain. Some independent reports suggest the gypsy works much better than the oppositions attempts. This may explain why they prefer a different splice.

I (actually my wife did the splicing) have spliced 8 plait onto chain (with a running splice) and used this for many years. The splice passed through the gypsy (Muir vertical) quite well although the grip as you would expect was not as secure.

The lack of grip in the transition did occasional cause a problem. One anchorage in Italy where the depth dropped off rapidly we dragged in storm force winds. The depth was over 80m only just outside the anchorage. I could use the capstan to recover the rope but the grip was insufficient for chain. The grip on the chain gypsy was insufficient over the splice area to recover the full weight of the chain and anchor. Not much fun.

These were extreme circumstances, but many boats keep rope rode in reserve to give extra scope in strong wind. The transition between the rope and the chain needs some careful thought. What works well in light wind may not be satisfactory for strong conditions. In these conditions you may need one hand to hold on and communication between the helm and foredeck will be very limited.

Not many anchorages drop off in depth as rapidly as those in Europe, but if you drag you are still likely to be recovering the anchor in much deeper water than normal. The grip on the gypsy needs to at least cope with the weight of the chain from the bow to the bottom. If the bow is blown off while this happening the force will be greater.

Unfortunately, the splice tends to be too bulky to pass through a chain stopper. A short length of rope with a chain hook is helpful in at least securing the chain as the rope/chain splice passes around the gypsy. This way if the splice jumps out the whole length of chain will not drop to the bottom.

Photo showing the sort of splice we used (although not our handiwork)
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:13 PM   #95
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I'll stick with what the windlass manufacturer recommends for the best performance of their windlass. I don't see any sense in changing to an untested splice recommended to the contrary. Mine has worked flawlessly for 5 years. It's tough to beat that record.
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:18 PM   #96
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I got a reply from Testing Engineers. I doubt even "crowd funding" would be sufficient to pursue this.

"Thank you for contacting us for your testing needs. We have performed similar tests in the past, and have a few questions to ensure testing performed meets your expectations.

Are you able to splice the rope onto itself to form a loop that we can use for testing?
Do you have a fixturing method in mind to ensure that the chain is axially loaded?

We anticipate a cost of at least $1,000 to machine fixtures and conduct the test. We also welcome you to come to our offices to speak about this project, to sort out how you envision testing this product."


I told him thanks for the reply but the cost was too high for a matter of curiosity. Still hoping we have a source 'in house' who could assist in our little experiment. Hopefully, Salty Dog will have the measuring equipment and recording capability required for the test.
What I have has a calibrated gauge that measures the pressure on the ram.

I calibrate the gauge with a deadweight tester.

The system is specifically made for testing welders and welding procedure qualifications. There is no recording device per say. What happens, with steel at least, is that the gauge will rise to a point where the strap will start to stretch. The gauge will not go higher than this point. We observe the gauge. The specimen will pop shortly after. The way we evaluate the tensile strength has to do with the area of the part being tested. (width x thickness). The line will be stretching and how to evaluate the area is subjective. The testing offered would be in accordance with your specifications, that is the kind of language I might use if I was not going to give information of any value in my opinion. The chain end of the specimen would need to be on the last link if using the standard supplied jaws or the jaws would get jammed. The holding fixture they are speaking of is to prevent the line itself from breaking at the point it is held in the jaws. The load applied is going to be different than the shock load in use.

We will still find that the splice is the weak point. You may want to think about seeing what kind of load it will handle by having it suspend a load inches off the ground.

I would think it is better economics to replace on seeing any degradation than doing any additional testing. It is hard to beat experience and the manufacturers recommendations.

(not proof read) well none of my posts are.
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:38 PM   #97
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Got to hear stories of anchoring in 100 feet of water with 600 feet of line out.
Oh, I have a log book full of those stories.

In my part of Alaska under a hundred feet is very shallow for an anchorage.
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Old 02-12-2015, 02:38 AM   #98
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Oh, I have a log book full of those stories.

In my part of Alaska under a hundred feet is very shallow for an anchorage.
Kevin

How many feet of rode do you have?
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Old 02-12-2015, 02:41 AM   #99
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Kevin

How many feet of rode do you have?
Right now 700 total. 100' of 3/8 BBB and 600' of 8 plait.

I'm going to 550' of 5/16 ht next month when it warms up enough to get on the boat.
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Old 02-12-2015, 05:26 PM   #100
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Impressive
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