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Old 03-03-2015, 06:42 PM   #201
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Considering how the location is critical to the anchoring formula, I would think in many of the places in the PNW the important thing is knowing where and how to tie your stern to shore. If you can't get that right all the rest the anchor choice all chain rode or mixed will mean nothing. In other localities there may be similar aspects to fixing your boat in one place. Considering how many boats are out there and how many inexperienced and new skippers there are dragging to the point of serious grounding and damage is not all that common. so my conclusion is that many anchors with what ever attached to them seems to do the job in protected anchorages and fair weather. Storms and open anchorages well that opens Pandora's box and opinions abound.
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Old 03-03-2015, 08:07 PM   #202
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I think the notion that one won't drag if they use all chain and they will drag if they use a combination rode is total bollocks.

Sailboats in the size range of our power cruisers tend to use a combination rode if for no other reason than they are much more tender when it comes to weight in the bow. And sailboats don't seem to be dragging around all over the place, at least in my observation.

I think whether or not a boat drags is so dependent on so many variables that coming up with a one-size-fits-all rule is virtually impossible as much as everyone tries to do it.

Chain offers the advantages chain offers. Combination rodes offer the advanatages combinations rodes offer. Which one is most advantageous for YOUR boat is determined by which on which one is most advantageous for your boat.

While we prefer all-chain rode for the reasonss I have already written (ad nauseum it seems), this is NOT TO IMPLY that we believe that combination rodes don't work or are inferior in some basic, generic way.

The most experienced and knowledgable recreational boater I know in this region has a 40' sloop with a combination rode. And he almost always anchors even if a dock is available. And while I'm sure he's dragged on occasion, he's been anchoring successfully up and down this coast for dedades with his CQR and his combination rode.

And we have watched Joe Boaters--- sometimes multiple Joe Boaters at the same time---- with their big power cruisers and all-chain rodes drag all over the place under conditions where the sailboats in the anchorage stayed put very nicely.

We have a heavy, high-windage boat so we want a rode that does everything it can to keep the angle of pull on the anchor low. To us, that defines an all-chain rode for our boat.

The question of how much catenary (sag) is required is moot. Because every situation other than dead calm will create a different amount of catenary. What's important to us is that there IS some. We don't care if there is only six feet of sag over the 180' length of chain that'w been pulled off the bottom. That's several feet more than there would have been if we had a combination rode, so the angle of pull on the anchor shank will be that much less.

Not a lot less, but who knows how many inches or feet of "less" will make the difference between the anchor staying put and it starting to be levered up out of the bottom?

That's OUR reasoning applied to OUR boat in the conditions WE anchor in. What is best for Art, Eric, Don, Mark--- pick your name--- will depend on the variables THEY have to deal with.
Gee Marin, you do like to fully explain things and to write (I'm a bit afflicted that way myself )!

Ya could just say... "Each to Their Freaking Own!"
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Old 03-03-2015, 08:21 PM   #203
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Talking of catenary, anyone used an "Anchor Buddy"?
Yes, I regularly use an Anchor Buddy together with all chain rode. I think it is a great device and I have never dragged the anchor when using it.
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Old 03-03-2015, 08:31 PM   #204
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Gee Marin, you do like to fully explain things and to write (I'm a bit afflicted that way myself )!

Ya could just say... "Each to Their Freaking Own!"
You're correct. But over a few decades of working in television, film, and now HD 4K video, first in commercial televisiion and now in the aerospace industry, I have long since learned that if you explain something thoroughly and well the first time, that's it. You don't then endlessly answer questions from people who don't get it or who are confused.

The one exception I've found is this forum, where since 2007 the same topics have been covered with the same quesitons and the same answers and opinions by largely the same people. I'm as guilty as anyone else but I find it an intresting challenge to see if I can give the same answer I always give but in a different form or style of writing. Helps kill the time during computer renders.

Of course, the only real audience for the answers on this forum are the new folks who genuinely are trying to learn something they need to know. The rest of us are just expressing the same opinons and experiences we've heard from each other a hundred times.

So the new folks are ones I write for. Not the longtimers who have heard it all before and are thoroughly rooted in their own opinions, beliefs, and biases.

I was given the task last year of writing and producing a video that is designed to help commercial airline pilots avoid what's called a runway excursion--- running a plane off the end or side of a runway during landing. It has become one of the leading causes of aircraft accidents and fatalities worldwide over the last four or five years. The audience for this video is every airline pilot on the planet.

It's not a training video--- airline pilots all know how to fly. It's an awareness and motivational video. A marketing video for not crashing your airplane, if you will.

There are a lot of factors to the story, some of them are fairly complex, and they had to be explained and illustrated clearly and effectively to audiences whose first language is not always English. And given the very cynical and jaded nature of the audience, the video had to be totally credible to them in its style and delivery.

The end result is a seventeen minute video which after the first time it was previewed at an aviation safety conference in Europe, the Boeing presenters were immediately swarmed by airline representatives asking to get a copies to use with their flight departments. Not only that, but Airbus came up and asked for a copy and they are now using it with their airline customers.

I don't believe in giving a partial answer to a question because that doesn't help anyone. If anything, it generates confusion and more questions. So you end up getting the endless threads about the same topics on this forum.

So, sorry, but if I'm going to try to explain something, I'm going to try to explain it as best I possibly can.

"Each to Their Freaking Own!" is a totally valid answer. But you know damn well some newbie is going to read that and ask, "But what do you mean by that?" And this thread will get started all over again.
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Old 03-03-2015, 08:33 PM   #205
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Talking of catenary, anyone used an "Anchor Buddy"?
The fisherman in SE Alaska call it's equivalent an "Alaskan sleeping pill".
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:08 PM   #206
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Larry I've not heard that one or been aware of fishermen using a Kellet. I assume you mean commercial fishermen.

I made a 12lb Kellet for Willy but have not used it. 12 lbs is not far from the weight of my anchors so it may be an appropriate weight. Should be easy to slide down the Brait line but the way I designed it .. it would'nt go past the start of chain. But my chain is usually shorter than 15' so it would be in a nearly perfect place. Would probably be a problem if it did get down the chain because retraction would need be with the rode. Would require plucking it off the rode as it came up to the bow roller.

But I suspect getting an anchor 12lbs heavier would yeild better results.

Usually a Kellet is slid down over the chain via a bronze "rider" that's clamped on but free to slide over chain and line. They are availible on-line .. at least I've seen them in the past.

If placed well and heavy enough they definitely should increase catenary.
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:14 PM   #207
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You're correct. But over a few decades of working in television, film, and now HD 4K video, first in commercial televisiion and now in the aerospace industry, I have long since learned that if you explain something thoroughly and well the first time, that's it. You don't then endlessly answer questions from people who don't get it or who are confused.

The one exception I've found is this forum, where since 2007 the same topics have been covered with the same quesitons and the same answers and opinions by largely the same people. I'm as guilty as anyone else but I find it an intresting challenge to see if I can give the same answer I always give but in a different form or style of writing. Helps kill the time during computer renders.

Of course, the only real audience for the answers on this forum are the new folks who genuinely are trying to learn something they need to know. The rest of us are just expressing the same opinons and experiences we've heard from each other a hundred times.

So the new folks are ones I write for. Not the longtimers who have heard it all before and are thoroughly rooted in their own opinions, beliefs, and biases.

I was given the task last year of writing and producing a video that is designed to help commercial airline pilots avoid what's called a runway excursion--- running a plane off the end or side of a runway during landing. It has become one of the leading causes of aircraft accidents and fatalities worldwide over the last four or five years. The audience for this video is every airline pilot on the planet.

It's not a training video--- airline pilots all know how to fly. It's an awareness and motivational video. A marketing video for not crashing your airplane, if you will.

There are a lot of factors to the story, some of them are fairly complex, and they had to be explained and illustrated clearly and effectively to audiences whose first language is not always English. And given the very cynical and jaded nature of the audience, the video had to be totally credible to them in its style and delivery.

The end result is a seventeen minute video which after the first time it was previewed at an aviation safety conference in Europe, the Boeing presenters were immediately swarmed by airline representatives asking to get a copies to use with their flight departments. Not only that, but Airbus came up and asked for a copy and they are now using it with their airline customers.

I don't believe in giving a partial answer to a question because that doesn't help anyone. If anything, it generates confusion and more questions. So you end up getting the endless threads about the same topics on this forum.

So, sorry, but if I'm going to try to explain something, I'm going to try to explain it as best I possibly can.

"Each to Their Freaking Own!" is a totally valid answer. But you know damn well some newbie is going to read that and ask, "But what do you mean by that?" And this thread will get started all over again.
They tried the same thing with the Bible. We all know how that effort turned out!

"... if you explain something thoroughly and well the first time, that's it."

"... if I'm going to try to explain something, I'm going to try to explain it as best I possibly can."

Just kidding, Marin. It's your biz to explain things. Carry on fellow boater!
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:54 PM   #208
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They tried the same thing with the Bible. We all know how that effort turned out!
It was probably very understandable to the people who read it when it first came out. But the progressive dumbing down of humanity's language skills has led to people today scratching their heads and saying, "What the hell did Jesus (or Moses or....) mean by that?" And then everyone starts speculating like they do about anchors and motor oil and then the problems start.
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Old 03-04-2015, 07:37 AM   #209
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"Yeah 3-4 min to set up and an hour to undo once the rodes twist or foul after the boat swings around a few times :-) "

Since the stern anchor line was walked fwd , after deploying the rear anchor, its bitter end is free.

Should the wind have clocked a dozen times its no time to pass a coil around the bow working anchor line.

Should you be ON the stern anchor , easing till you are over the main anchor is a snap, and it is pulled.

The vessel will already be pointing at the working stern anchor so recovery l is standard .

With a hyd windlass ( no run time limit or white smoke) we pull up to the anchor , tie off for the anchor yank from momentum, and pull the 12H or 20H aboard.

It is carried to the stern , the line coiled and away we go.
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Old 03-04-2015, 07:58 AM   #210
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The answer is... It depends. More specifically on the scope ratio, the "wet" weight of the chain, the current and the the wind loading on the boat.

If the catenary disappears you need to let out more chain.

The producers of distant shores actually just filmed part two of their anchoring episodes last week where they experiment with catenary.

Sailing Blog - Technical Hints and Tips - Sailing Videos

The short version is that the catenary leverage factor is half your scope ratio. Although scope ratios greater than 7:1 have diminishing returns with respect to the rodes's angle the catenary forces are increased dramatically.



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Old 03-04-2015, 09:48 AM   #211
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Pretty much nothing comes into play regarding anchoring... "... unless there is wind or current". That's all that anchoring is to meant ward against.
Actually, in our BC Coast and SE Alaska (PNW ) boating grounds I find tidal movement the key worry so that optimum scope can be maintained. Think 15 feet as routine Art.
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Old 03-04-2015, 10:20 AM   #212
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Actually, in our BC Coast and SE Alaska (PNW ) boating grounds I find tidal movement the key worry so that optimum scope can be maintained. Think 15 feet as routine Art.

Part of the optimum scope, is also knowing (seeing) what's in your swinging room. We like anchoring at low tide. It gives you a better sense of what's under you. More than once, after coming in at high tide and then looking around at low tide...yikes! Then you see that rock pinnacle or shallow area that was missed or wasn't on the charts.

This Selene was anchored near Ketchikan in July 2010 when they missed judged the tides.
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Old 03-04-2015, 10:50 AM   #213
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This Selene was anchored near Ketchikan in July 2010 when they missed judged the tides.
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Old 03-04-2015, 11:26 AM   #214
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Larry we lost a 47' trawler from Thorne Bay like that. The tide went out and the boat wound up on a rock. Then the tide came in and the boat didn't rise to the occasion ... and sunk.
When we enter an anchorage I go basically in circles checking for unmarked rocks or other hazards. Depending heavily on the fish finder. The most stressful part of anchoring most of the time. Fwd sonar would be golden.

Back to the debate .. and it is a debate. Check the thread title.

There are numerous aspects of rode preference that we've skipped over w/o much more than a comment or two like anchor line stink, chain noise on rocks at night, rock abrasion like coral and perhaps other stuff but it seems the opinion of what is best lies mostly in the performance. What's best for anchoring ... that is holding the boat within it's swinging arc or radius. I can't see why everybody can't agree that the combination rode is superior.

If one had an all chain rode and took out the upper half of the rode (chain) and applied that weight in the form of a chain weighing twice as much as the original to the lower half of the rode the catenary advantage should be obvious and large. The double heavy weight of the chain should be much better at holding the rode at a low angle, or flat on the bottom than the original all chain rode.

Of course all the chain in the chain locker does no one any good at all except the store where it was purchased. The chain near the boat because of distance from the anchor gives little or no catenary benefit to the anchor.

But all this weight in the chain locker does bad things to the performance of the boat. Following seas come to mind.

So with the combination rode one has the choice of more weight near the anchor or less overall rode weight or something in between.

So from a performance standpoint the combination is better. But in order to go there one must have a reel winch or a combo chain/line winch. One must (w the latter) address the splice issue before accepting the combination option so we probably should have done that prior to this C/L debate. In the past I remember many more came fwd and told of their successful anchoring w the splice. Thank you Al for your contribution in that regard. Eight years between splicing seems a reasonable maintenance interval to me. About enough time to forget how to do it.

So Art I don't agree w Marin and think he's right about everybody having an anchor rode that's just right for them. Not for performance anyway. Re the other things like rock abrasion or line smell can be very user specific. And the convenience of all chain as in button up button down is as obvious as combo performance. But re the performance it's all combo.
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Old 03-04-2015, 12:26 PM   #215
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I vote for a combination rode. My line starts after 200 feet of chain
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Old 03-04-2015, 02:30 PM   #216
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Eric-- Deployed is deployed weight and ALL the weight of the chain between the bow roller and the anchor shank contributes to the catenary. It's against the laws of physics and gravity to say this part of a deployed (suspended) chain contributes to catenary and that part doesn't (except for whatever chain is actually lying on the ground).

I also think you are blowing the effect of weight in the chain locker WAY out of proportion. On an average recreational or racing sailboat or planing power boat or a little cruiser like yours the weight of a long chain rode in the locker could be a factor. Our boat doesn't give a crap how much chain is in the locker. We've had four adults go to the foredeck of our boat to watch and take pictures of whales. So them plus the weight of our 200' of 5/16" chan rode in the locker was all crowded at the bow of our boat on an average wind chop day.

I was driving and you know what the boat did? Not a damn thing. Sure the bow went down a few degrees but the handling didn't change and if the speed changed it wasn't enough to show on the knotmeter or the GPS. So I think this picture you keep painting of boats going around with their bows down and plowing into waves because they have all-chain rode is completely unrealistic.

Sure, if we took our 200' chain rode and piled it on the bow of our planing 17' Arima fishing boat it would mess thing up big time. But our GB doesn't even know that chain is up there.

As I've said many times before, reality trumps theory every single time.
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Old 03-04-2015, 03:33 PM   #217
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Marin my friend (and you are),
You want reality? Tie a nice heavy line to a tree about 12 or so feet up. Tie the other end (about 30 or 40') to something stout right next to the ground. Tie a 6 to 8lb weight to the line about 3 to 5' from the end on the ground. Observe the distance from the ground (of the line) about 2' from the end of the line next to the ground or measure the angle of the line near the low end of the line or both. Then tie a weight (6 to 10lbs) to the line about 3 to 5' from the attach point on the tree. Make the same measurements and/or observations w the weight up high. You will find that the angle of the line is/will be much shallower near the ground than w the weight up high.
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Old 03-04-2015, 04:18 PM   #218
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Ghost,
I'm paying attention as I may do that some day.
Thanks.
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Old 03-04-2015, 04:50 PM   #219
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Not sure my boat on a chain rode acts like a tree...unless of course it is aground and the anchor line doesn't care.....
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Old 03-04-2015, 04:56 PM   #220
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Therefore I believe we should be focusing on how many using just chain and how many using combo rope/chain experience anchor drag (I know of none but tiny fisher dinks that use only rope-to-anchor; so that is a non entity in my book - but, of course if rope is all you use then join in with your experiences!).

Looking forward to learn other boaters' experiences regarding anchor drag and type rode used on those occasions.

We used all chain on the previous boat; don't remember ever dragging, but don't think that had anything to do with rode construction.

We now use a combination rope/chain rode (25' chain at the anchor end) and dragged once in slime (not a great anchor for slime and it was also too light for the boat; we hadn't remounted our current anchor yet). We also dragged once when the wind happened to pipe up a bit while we were at about 2:1 scope in a nearby creek; don't think that had much to do with rode construction.

We would have dragged a third time when we were on our first Fortress (FX-23 at 32, brought over from previous smaller boat) at about 5:1 scope in soft mud... but that one was caused by a 360 spin we made when a fast squall came through. In that case, I'm not sure any anchor could have done much better, but anyway we didn't wait to see about resetting since we were only about -mile from our own dock. In the circumstances, and with some lubber friends aboard, it made more sense to just bring the anchor aboard and go home, enjoy the upcoming lightning storm in the slip.

Don't see how these result can be universally useful, other lessons derived from a "what not to do" analysis -- use an appropriate anchor for the boat and the substrate, don't rely on short scope, etc.

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