Is 33 Bruce sufficient?

[Nomad Willy]

Yes I can produce about 1000lb pull at full throttle in fwd gear w Willy .. I think. Just judging from what I have read. Steve of Anchor Setting Vidios got into that when Peter B asked about reverse thrust.

I’ve found that my two propellers differ greatly fwd to reverse. My reverse gear feels like twice or more reverse thrust is availible w my MP prop that has symetrical blades w no twist. That is the pitch is constant across the blades.
But it’s my other prop that’s weak in reverse and it’s probably a typical prop. Like most other trawlers on this forum.

I agree w your “50 or 60hp .... except that I feel it’s closer to 50hp. Nice round figure to work with.

But what happends when you’ve got a group of boaters w extremly wide range of boats .. some w enough power to pull a house over and others w barely enough to pull the screen door open. All talk’in about backing down anchoring at 1400rpm.

We all need to sort this all out and do what’s relavant to our own boats and situations.

And FF other anchor tests use a benchmark of 5000lbs rode tension.

 

[Slowmo]

Anchors are like cars, everyone has an opinion as to what's the best but as with cars there's less difference than meets the eye. I've been anchoring for 40 years on a 40' boat. On our old wooden cruiser we ran a 45# Danforth type and claw (Bruce) day hook. In the case of anchors size does matter. The 33# Bruce is OK but at the lower end of the scale. We always held well but ran a sentinal (weight system that reduces the boat jerking on the anchor).

Our current 40' Tolly runs a 44# Bruce with chain rode, if I were buying another I'd go up a notch size.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Slowmo,
Is your user name related to the old hydroplane “Slow-motion IV”?
I remember those days. In those days “marine engines” had the flywheel on the proper and ideal end on the engine.

I agree that when using a Claw one should use an anchor one or two sizes larger than what one would carry using a modern anchor.
I’ve had a theory that one element of the Claw that is common to the Bruce Claw is a relatively shallow (low numerical number) throat angle in degrees. There are other Claws that have a low throat angles and I wonder if anyone else has an opinion re throat angles separating good performers from poor performers. So I ask you do you have any experience or general knowledge relating to this?
I only have/had two Claws that I’ve used. Two have a low throat angles and I have felt they had better performance that I expected hearing all the negative verboso on the Claw type of anchor. I also had another Claw on my previous boat that worked OK. Don’t remember ever anchoring in much wind w that one though. Went to Juneau and back using it all the time though.

 

[Slowmo]

Hi, No I didn't intend to reference Slow Motion though with our wood boat I had Jensen motorboat do our maintenance over the past decade. But the reference really was to the 7.5kn cruise speed of our old Respite.

I actually have much more experience with a Danforth type. The Tollycraft we purchased has a Bruce and and the former owner swore by it. I used a Bruce as a 'day hook' on Respite but never overnight. Respite has a fairly large Danforth type that was fabricated (years ago) by my father and modified to a) allow slightly more fluke angle to improve digging in and b) modfied pivot to prevent the rode from being able to snag the pivot. Its also about 50#. That worked extremely well over the past 30 years or so, but when I look at how big an anchor we had versus other 40' boats (with more windage)...well I tend to think a lot of boats are under endowed on the anchor front.

On the Bruce I would expect the throat angle to play a role, just as the fluke range of a Danforth can. But I imagine it is a trade off between how quickly it can grab and ultimate holding power. However my personal experience with the Bruce is limited to a day hook or stern anchor on Respite. Our just purchased 40' Tollycraft has the 44# Bruce. I haven't had it out yet so but the the boat has been to Alaska and didn't end up on a beach. I do think a lot of people who complain about this or that anchor are blaming the equipment rather than the operator. It may be that the new anchors (Rocna) are a bit more forgiving of the operator.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Slowmo,
Interesting bout the Dans.
I bought a very heavily built Danforth from Dunlap Industrial Supply in Everett. Was 35lbs as I recall and on my 30’ Willard that nearly a monster. This no name Dan had beefy low aspect ratio flukes and a 3/4” thick shank. Very beefy thing. Never did get it wet and don't remember what happened to it. Seems to me it had a wider throat angle probably aiming for short scope work. It was said the anchor was made by a salvage company in their own shop.

Have you seen the thread “Anchor Setting Videos”? I think I saw a Claw break out vertically. As in the fluke end of the anchor popping straight up. That was the strangest thing I ever saw an anchor do. Gonna go back and make sure I wasn’t seeing things. That’s what made me think about the throat angle. If the throat angle was wide it would force the fluke to be in an inverted way at a very high angle of attack. Under high rode tension the shank tip would be pressing down on the seafloor and then if the fluke abruptly “stalled” it could break out vertically. That’s the only explanation I can produce.

I found the Bruce test where the anchor broke out vertically ... post #118.

 

[Tomtonge]

Anyone know what size anchor chain was used on 1970 36’ Grand Banks classics trawlers ?
I’m using a 33lb Bruce on my 37 C&L Puget in the Ca delta.

 

[FF]

I prefer to size anchors by the windlass that drags it back up.

A REAL (never a knock off ) of most brands close to your windlass ability will give the best nights sleep.

I would hate to have my boat on the rocks and need to explain to the insurance company "but I saved half by buying a knockoff watch fob".

 

[rgano]

My GB 42 came to me with 400 feet of 5/16" BBB chain, and the GB 36 I ran up the rivers to Lake Michigan a couple years back was equipped with some 3/8" chain.

 

[Arc]

33lb Rocna with 100’ chain. Best all round anchor I have ever used.

 

[denverd0n]

My first thought was that the LAST thing I want is an anchor that is just "sufficient." I want to be asking myself, "is this anchor too big?," rather than "is this anchor big enough?"


I like to sleep soundly, and an anchor that I have absolute confidence in is the first prerequisite for that.

 

[Nomad Willy]

den,
You just proposed two questions and could never know the answer to.=
You’re never going to sleep as soundly as you’d like.
Many here think if they get a certain brand of anchor their boat could never drag. Got bad news for you. It can.

The biggest two variables in anchor security are the seafloor and the weather. Neither have anything to do w the brand or size of your anchor. The best thing you can do is set your anchor alarm (highly recommended) or quit anchoring.

 

[syjos]

Our boat is 40' and 40,000 pounds.

We had a 44# Genuine Bruce and 400' 5/16" HT chain. We cruise the PNW.

Our friends have a 55' Sunship that we raft alongside our boat with that anchor. We experienced 35 knot winds without dragging. We even occassionally had a second boat raft to us overnight without difficulty.

Found a used 66# Genuine Bruce and switched to that. I notice that the anchor almost sets immediately instead of taking a few feet to dig in.

We call it the "King Kong Anchor".

We have had Genuine Bruce anchors on every boat. We have never dragged!

 

[Nomad Willy]

Good testimony syjos,
Yes the genuine Bruce seems to have the edge in the Claw line. But re performance others could be as good .. or even better. I think the throat angle has a lot to do w good performance.

Look at “Anchor Setting Videos” and you’ll see some interesting “non-performances”. And there’s good reasons for every one.

I think the Claw design has great merit but someone needs to do a lot of experimenting w subtle shape changes.

I have a no-name Claw that worked well every time. It has the same throat angle as the Bruce. Since, I’ve modified it and it set one out of two times I have work to do. Done another mod and haven’t re-tried it.

But IMO the Claw (Bruce included) lacks the high holding power of newer anchors. BUT ... if you have an anchor that sets well, veers well ect ect you can have a better anchor than many newer anchors by up-sizing. Not always a fan of bigger is better but an anchor that is perfect but dosn’t hold in a hurrycane (so to speak) can be made into a super anchor by just up-sizing. Bigger is better but you’ve got to have excellent setting ect before it’s worth scaling up.

The Bruce was a miracle on the market when introduced in 73 and lots and lots of people are still buying them. I have two.

 

[FF]

"We have had Genuine Bruce anchors on every boat. We have never dragged"!

Genuine any good brand is far safer than a knockoff. Chain too!

 

[Simi 60]

. We experienced 35 knot winds without dragging. !

I have to say it, 35knots is nothing.
Report back when you've seen 80+ and tell us how good your anchor is.

Since the 80+ event and several 50+ events, we have had 40 knot storms come through that we have slept through.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Simi people don’t size anchors for 80 knots. That’s prolly over 100mph. People go to harbour if it’s going to blow that hard. But if you live where it blows that hard over once a year ......

And re the thread question a 33lb Bruce would be sufficient for my smaller boat. And for any doubters they can get a 44lb. That would be really big/heavy for a 30’ boat. It would be like using a Navy anchor on a smaller boat. You do get the benefits of a really heavy anchor when using a really big anchor.

I have a 33lb Lewmar Claw and every time I pick it up I think “wow, this should hold my boat on/in just about any situation”. But I’ve not used it like several other anchors I’ve got. Would be a good anchor to hang on Willy when I sell her though. Couldn’t sell her w a modified anchor.

 

[syjos]

I have to say it, 35knots is nothing.
Report back when you've seen 80+ and tell us how good your anchor is.

Here in the PNW and on the way to Alaska, we don't get 80 knot winds in the summer. 50 - 60 knots maybe in the straits.

Besides, we are prudent enough to stay in a safe Anchorage when extreme high winds are forecasted.

The 35 knot event mentioned was with a 55' boat rafted to us on a 44 # Bruce.

 

[syjos]

If the 33 Bruce is used in high wind, let out more scope. The anchorages north of Desolation are plentiful, offer protection and rarely crowded so more scope will not be a problem.

Any anchor will have more holding power with more scope, especially all chain. No reference to scope in this anchor discussion.

Most anchor tests are testing for maximum holding power which is not realistic. In most high wind anchoring situations, the waves cause the boat to move up and down jerking the chain and anchor. Add the wind veering the boat from side to side and the wind speed changes really is not a steady pull.

What's important in an anchor here in the PNW is the anchors ability to reset or stay buried during 180° current direction changes every six hours.

The Genuine Bruce has proven itself to us in over 40 years of usage. We started with three 22 # Bruce's for a mooring buoy, a 33 on a 34' Mainship and a 44# on the 40' Bluewater that we supersized to a 66 # Genuine Bruce.

We have never not been able to set the anchor and have never dragged in 40 years. And we have anchored in some really nasty weather. No not 80 knot wind.

 

[syjos]

It's a shame that Bruce no longer manufacture the Genuine Bruce.

When the Bruce Anchor patent expired about 15 years ago, knockoffs from China were imported and sold at 1/4 the price of the Genuine Bruce. Bruce was manufacturing theirs anchors in Europe.

The knockoffs were misshapen, poorly galvanized and the heat treatment was questionable. We tested three of the knockoffs by pressing the shank on a hydraulic press. All bent easily and one actually broke. The Bruce bent a little but sprung back when pressure was eased.

The manufacturer of the Bruce tried having their anchors produced at less cost by contracting with foundaries in China, India and several others. All the less expensive anchors failed Bruce testing standards and the company decided to end Bruce Anchor sales and concentrate on their offshore platform anchor business.

There are many used Genuine Bruce anchors for sale at swap meets, Craig's List and eBay.

I would not trust a knockoff Bruce anchor.

 

[Nomad Willy]

syjos,
Really like your “scope” on the Bruce.
Always been a favorite of mine but clearly weaker on holding power than many other anchors.
The lust for more in many products goes way beyond what is frequently needed. People drive to the Safeway store in 400hp corvettes and 300hp sedans. Excess in our western culture is standard equipment.
My first trawler trip to Alaska was on our little Albin 25. I was expecting some rocky bottoms so thought the Claw would give an advantage ... it didn’t ... because we didn’t find any rocky bottoms. The anchor was a 16lb Claw and it broke out once ... while setting. Hooked up and I tried to set it harder and out it came. On Willy the 22lb Claw performed perfectly many times but never used it in windy conditions.

And syjos don’t give the Bruce too much credit. Your seamanship I’m sure had more than a little to do w your Bruce success w it.

 

[markpierce]

Kokiak fishermen appear to prefer the Bruce as observed June 6.

 

[Simi 60]

Simi people don’t size anchors for 80 knots. That’s prolly over 100mph. People go to harbour if it’s going to blow that hard. But if you live where it blows that hard over once a year ......

We , or Manson actually, sized our anchor for the worst conditions hoping to never need it but glad we had it when we did.

The storms we get that produce these winds come on fast with little warning but are short lived.
Often the only warning you get is a wall of clouds before it hits.
The pic below was a week ago mid winter here.
Glassy calm and sunny one minute and 60knots the next.

The last place I'd want to be when that hit was trying to come back in amongst rock breakwaters, concrete marinas and other boats.

 

[Simi 60]

Screen shot of wind readings

 

[Nomad Willy]

Kokiak fishermen appear to prefer the Bruce as observed June 6.

Mark, most all Ak fishermen prefer the Forfjord by my observation not long ago in southern SE Ak.
But those that can’t find/afford a Forfjord settle for a Claw. In Craig about 8-10% of fishermen use a Dreadnought that is a little like a Navy anchor. I’d guess 66% use the Forfjord and 30% the Claw.

But yes the fishermen do like/use the Claws.

 

[Slowmo]

We run a 44# Bruce (real Bruce) on a 40' Tollycraft. I was dubious, the boat came with it and I'd seen mixed reviews on the Bruce, plus our boat has a big bridge enclosure (windage). But we had a very windy night stern tied at Wallace island in the Gulf islands, the Bruce held firm despite the boat being crosswise to the wind. It was a bit hard to get it to release, it was really dug in the next morning, but that also contradicts those who say Bruce anchors don't dig in. The only thing I'd say is that this was with a bit larger version on a boat that's not much bigger than yours.

 

[rgano]

Captain Obvious says all the anchor chatter in the world does not alter what seems to be the unalterable truth which is that most any reasonably sized brand name anchor deployed properly into a suitable bottom will get rave reviews from the owners and that even anchor tests can reveal problematical results for those trying to figure out what anchor to buy. It's an educated guessing game.

 

[dhays]

I will make a guess that most folks use the anchor that came with their boat until something happens. Maybe that something is that they have an unpleasant dragging experience. Maybe their anchor gets fouled and lost.

Walking my dock in the PNW, I see a lot of Bruce anchors. Most of those boats were commissioned when the Bruce the anchor of the day. Those folks haven’t had the occasion to make a change (most don’t ever anchor). My last sailboat had a CQR, my current boat came with the same CQR. The sailboat was built in 2006, my North Pacific was built in 2010. During that era, CQRs were popular.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Dave,
Since you don’t say so you’re probably seeing/counting all the clones and genuine Bruce anchors together. At this point I’d guess only about 20% of Claws are the Bruce brand. I’ve done a lot of careful looking and there are many surprising differences between all the Claw anchors. One of the best I’ve had has nothing but the weight to read on it. Many call them “no name” Claws. This 22lb no name of mine worked well until I modded it. But it failed in the world’s worst mud.

But re manny here the “bigger is better” seems to apply more to the Claws than others. Bigger may mean a Claw will actually function whereas bigger usually means w other anchors that they just hold better. But most all Claws will engage at least one side fluke. Mud is about the only thing that will make a Claw inoperative. “Inoperative” as in a 3lb Danforth S class anchor will hold far better that a fully mud plugged 30-40lb Claw.

 

[Simi 60]

I will make a guess that most folks use the anchor that came with their boat until something happens. Maybe that something is that they have an unpleasant dragging experience. Maybe their anchor gets fouled and lost.

Walking my dock in the PNW, I see a lot of Bruce anchors. Most of those boats were commissioned when the Bruce the anchor of the day. Those folks haven’t had the occasion to make a change (most don’t ever anchor). My last sailboat had a CQR, my current boat came with the same CQR. The sailboat was built in 2006, my North Pacific was built in 2010. During that era, CQRs were popular.

And most of them will only leave the dock and anchor in perfect weather, so a house brick would probably work just as well.

Its for that reason that I never pay attention to what the little used boat on the marina has and instead look at what permanent cruisers and commercial operators use.

 

[foggysail]

I used Bruce anchors in the past for years with good performance results with my old sailboat. This was until our harbors filled with ell grass. That caused the anchor (when setting) to pull free from the ocean bottom along with a huge divit of ocean bottom attached.

The anchor became untrustworthy for me and I do NOT recommend them for use around here in Massachusetts where ell grass has proliferated.