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Old 09-05-2015, 11:29 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
I said "I suspect" now tell me, why would you want to power forward on the one hand, but disdain a snubber on the other?

Oh, here's one of the pics:

WOW!

I'm looking at that photo and I have to say, I'm pretty impressed with ther thickness of that pulpit.

Thats gotta be what 3/4" thick? Or maybe it's just 3/4" thick plywood covered be 1/8" of jell coat.

I'm wondering with all that inherent strength how you could ever break a pulpit like that.

Now this is an anchor pulpit. It took six inch bolts to bolt the windlass and the threads were tight length wise.
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Old 09-05-2015, 11:33 PM   #42
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Good comeback George. I don't disdain the use of a snubber, I just don't know if it's the absolute necessary item of equipment on a boat. Where we boat and anchor we're in pretty protected waters.


I've considered building one using a chain hook like the Mantus chain hook. I would attach it to my forward cleats to take the strain off the pulpit and roller.
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Old 09-05-2015, 11:35 PM   #43
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WOW!

I'm wondering with all that inherent strength how you could ever break a pulpit like that.
Let it get wet over a period of time so the plywood rots. That would work.
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Old 09-06-2015, 12:57 AM   #44
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I always figured the snubber as an anti-noise sleeping at anchor thing and don't jerk the anchor free from the seafloor thing that morphed into a don't break the windlass/capstan so the manufactures can sell lighter hardware and more of it at a lower price point thing.



I'm a wee little combo rode guy, so I got no dog in this fight.
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Old 09-06-2015, 02:12 AM   #45
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The only purposes of a snubber that I've seen described are 1) a means of adding a shock absorber to an all-chain rode to protect deck hardware (cleats, bollards, windlass gears, etc) from stress, strain and potential damage when the catenary is pulled out of the chain, 2) a means of eliminating the noise transmtted through a boat by the chain moving in the bow roller as the boat moves while at anchor and, 3) a means of lowering the angle of pull on the anchor shank.

Of these 1) is the most important.

This our arrangement. We let the chain grab down about 8 feet under the surface of the water. The bottom of the loop of chain hanging down between the chain grab and the pulpit roller is 15 to 20 feet below the surface of the water.
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Old 09-06-2015, 03:25 AM   #46
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Last time we were beating up this particular horse someone posted an nasty pic of stripped windlass gears due to overloading. So there might be something to it. Doesn`t cost a lot to do, as someone said it looks very pro, it quietens chain clanking, seems to smooth out sudden jerks (on the rode thanks), and if it fails the load goes back on the chain so it "fails safe", (except of course if the reverting load rips the windlass apart).
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Old 09-06-2015, 03:42 AM   #47
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The original windlass on our boat lunched some gear teeth during an anchor retrieve. There was no undue strain on the windlass at the time. One moment it was running fine and the next it had locked up solid. We have no idea what the windlass was subjected to before we bought the boat. So it's very possible the gear train had been subjected to a severe strain in the past.

We replaced it with a Lofrans Tigres.
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Old 09-06-2015, 07:33 AM   #48
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"The snubber line should be the same size as what you would use for a rope rode for the boat in question."

I would disagree , the purpose of the snubber is to add elastic stretch into a solid chain system.

Bu using say 30 ft of 3/8 line on 40 ft of released chain the nylon can stretch , and if overloaded and snaps , breaking causes no danger.

Nylon takes about 10% of its breaking load to begin to stretch and smooth the ride.

Nylon is quite strong so very thin works well in most O nite situations.

Over nite even a boat that is nervous and dodges constantly the loads are in the hundreds of pounds , not thousands. Even 1/4 inch snubber line will work in most anchorages.

The hassle with thin is of course chafe , so a shackle into a bow eye just above the water solves the problem.

No problem with having 2 thicknesses of line attached, , so a heavier snubber can be used above 25-30K.

The fear of not using a deck fitting to secure the chain while anchored also comes from fears of the chain jumping out of the gypsy or the usual hook not holding as the loads become cyclical with every wave that stretches the chain barb tight.

When the only thing keeping the chain from going overboard is the gears inside the windlass not turning , there is a risk of overloading a single gear tooth.
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Old 09-06-2015, 10:07 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Northern Spy View Post
I always figured the snubber as an anti-noise sleeping at anchor thing and don't jerk the anchor free from the seafloor thing that morphed into a don't break the windlass/capstan so the manufactures can sell lighter hardware and more of it at a lower price point thing.
Exactly my experience. Since my boat is a fwd berth cabin design, I appreciate that the noise is significantly reduced with a snubber. Another plus is that the boat seems to "hunt" less in the wind when attaching the snubber to two points on either side of the pulpit.
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Old 09-06-2015, 04:30 PM   #50
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Bu using say 30 ft of 3/8 line on 40 ft of released chain the nylon can stretch , and if overloaded and snaps , breaking causes no danger.
Breaking sure as hell does cause danger... now you've got the chain snapping extremely HARD against whatever it is attached to. Rode the size appropriate to the boat stretches just fine, and will hold you when the going gets rough.

Yes I know that is wimpy little pulpit in the pic, guy said it had held up for 20 years mostly of fishing. The real point is not the occasional catastrophic failure, but the creeping wear on the whole system.

By the way, I use those Davis heavy nylon chafe guards where my bridle lines go through the very smooth bow chock. I use long snubber lines so when fully extended the angle through the chock is seemingly not severe. I have seen one of those guards completely worn through and ruined in the course of one overnight storm.

I think Marin summed it up pretty well. However if the snubber is connected to a cleat or bollard on deck, it does not reduce the angle of the pull when fully extended. The attachment point at the boat has to be somewhere closer to the water line. And, I will add again one other very good use: breaking out a very stubborn anchor. I always kept the snubber line cleated after taking the hook off if needed for this purpose; shortening the length significantly if I had to re-deploy it to break the anchor out.
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Old 09-06-2015, 05:28 PM   #51
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Breaking sure as hell does cause danger... now you've got the chain snapping extremely HARD against whatever it is attached to. Rode the size appropriate to the boat stretches just fine, and will hold you when the going gets rough.

Yes I know that is wimpy little pulpit in the pic, guy said it had held up for 20 years mostly of fishing. The real point is not the occasional catastrophic failure, but the creeping wear on the whole system.

By the way, I use those Davis heavy nylon chafe guards where my bridle lines go through the very smooth bow chock. I use long snubber lines so when fully extended the angle through the chock is seemingly not severe. I have seen one of those guards completely worn through and ruined in the course of one overnight storm.

I think Marin summed it up pretty well. However if the snubber is connected to a cleat or bollard on deck, it does not reduce the angle of the pull when fully extended. The attachment point at the boat has to be somewhere closer to the water line. And, I will add again one other very good use: breaking out a very stubborn anchor. I always kept the snubber line cleated after taking the hook off if needed for this purpose; shortening the length significantly if I had to re-deploy it to break the anchor out.
Thanks for finally seeing my scarasm I was wondering if I had lost my touch.

I agree that a snubber is a good thing when deployed in rough conditions. Although I do not use mine every time I anchor, whhen I anchor overnight I deploy it, just in case.
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Old 09-06-2015, 06:56 PM   #52
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As George says, a snubber cleated on deck does not reduce the angle of pull on the anchor shank once the catenary is taken our of the chain rode. It does still provide shock absorbing at that point, however.

The reason we let our chain grab down so far under the surface of the water and then let the loop of chain down even farther than that is with that much more weight hanging down there it takes more force to lift it up. So I guess the more accurate statement is that it helps keep the angle of pull on the anchor shank lower a little longer.
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Old 09-06-2015, 07:06 PM   #53
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Not all boats have pulpits. Most windlasses have dog stops to protect the windlass gears. I'm not anti snubber, just enjoying pictures of rotted pulpits and other iffy reasoning.

Horror of horrors, last night watched 3 sailboats dragging in Ganges during a 23 knot willywaw. they all had snubbers but seemingly small anchors and rope rode.

Now, back to factual information on windlasses that have been torn asunder from well found vessels because a snubber was not utilized.
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Old 09-06-2015, 07:24 PM   #54
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Our Lofrans windlass has a dog stop if that's what it's called, and we use it once the rode is out the amount we want. The boat's original windlass did not have this feature. Whether this contributed to its eventual sheering of some gear teeth we have no way of knowing.
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Old 09-06-2015, 08:03 PM   #55
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Exactly my experience. Since my boat is a fwd berth cabin design, I appreciate that the noise is significantly reduced with a snubber..
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Old 09-06-2015, 08:15 PM   #56
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There are two reason for a snubber.

First, as stated to take the strain off the windlass (or post if wrapped there), especially in gusty conditions where the chain is constantly pulling and loosening. The other, and just as valid, is to cut down on noise, especially during the night and especially for those in a bow berth.

[edit: apologies, I missed the last page of posts before I commented.]
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Old 09-06-2015, 09:44 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Not all boats have pulpits. Most windlasses have dog stops to protect the windlass gears. I'm not anti snubber, just enjoying pictures of rotted pulpits and other iffy reasoning.

Horror of horrors, last night watched 3 sailboats dragging in Ganges during a 23 knot willywaw. they all had snubbers but seemingly small anchors and rope rode.

Now, back to factual information on windlasses that have been torn asunder from well found vessels because a snubber was not utilized.
A snubber on rope rodes? That doesn't make any sense. Why don't you consult some windlass manufacturers or their manuals, see what they say? Having done so myself, I just can't imagine they would say such things! ;o).

For instance: Maxwell: "Do not use the windlass as a bollard! In all but the lightest conditions, engage the chainstopper or bollard after completing the anchoring manoeuvre. This will avoid damage to the gearbox and possible bending of the stainless steel shaft" "In heavy weather conditions, always use a heavy anchor snub or stop from the chain directly to a bollard or firmly fixed deck cleat"

Ideal: "Shock absorption can also be a concern with all chain. Under most conditions the weight of the chain will cause a sag in the chain offering gentle shock absorption. When conditions are such that the chain is pulled straight back and there is no shock absorption a snubber can be added"

But suit yourself. If you have to have some direct immediate cataclysmic evidence for any best practice, good luck to you! Some stuff happens quickly, some stuff happens over time. And some stuff never happens if you are not "out there" much.
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Old 09-07-2015, 01:20 AM   #58
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A snubber on rope rodes? That doesn't make any sense.

There's just no splainin' what those blowboaters think is right!! There's no way Tom was suggesting that as a recommended method. I remember him telling me it doesn't work for sh1t!
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Old 09-07-2015, 06:52 AM   #59
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"A snubber on rope rodes? That doesn't make any sense."

Some lazy folks will anchor every night with a storm sized anchor and rode.

This will seldom stretch in most O'nite anchorages as the loads are so light.

So with a Nervous Nellie that wanders a lot , it might help soften the jerk when the boar veers from side to side.

Much preferred is that big anchor with an anchor line suitable for the conditions.

IF the Mfg of a fine product sez,

"Do not use the windlass as a bollard! In all but the lightest conditions, engage the chainstopper or bollard after completing the anchoring manoeuvre."

It might not be wise to out think him.
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Old 09-07-2015, 08:51 AM   #60
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Been on some vessels where the load on the windlass is taken up by a chain stopper, devils claw or pelican hook. No sign of a rope snubber hanging into the water.

Another simple solution for removing the load on the windlass is to employ a short length of strong line with a chain hook grabbing the chain a few feet in front of the windlass and tied off to the bollard.

Of course if Fortress is to be believed, most of our anchors are dragging anyway before the windlass to deck integrity is tested.

When Fortress did their recent pull test promo, was a snubber used? And again, how do those weird sail boats get by without a snubber on their deck mounted winches? Saw two warping winches on a large yacht yesterday and no sign of deck fatigue or bent over winch.

Puzzling to say the least -----
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