Wiring question,,,

[Richard W]

Did I get lucky with IKEA and unlucky with Dr LED? My read is LED manufacturing, along with better QA/QC, has come a long way in the last 5-7 years and todays bulbs are a better product.

Good question ... the answer might be complicated.

The LEDs intended for home do not require much voltage regulation/protection built in as they come with own 12V DC power supply which is intended to be connected to fairly stable source of 120V AC household outlet. They will perform well in fairly narrow range of voltage fluctuation.

The good marine LED assemblies have own voltage regulation/protection built into every "bulb" or fixture as they relay on an unstable 12V DC power source.

In the early days of marine LEDs, most of the overvoltage protection was achieved with resistors that turn into power/heat sinks when voltage spikes.

Currently, good marine LEDs have robust voltage regulators built into every "bulb" or fixture that can operate in the 10-30V DC range, and are equally suitable for 12V DC and 24V DC installations.

Some others, like Dr. LED, still offer two versions, one for 12V DC and another for 24V DC installation. Can't really say they are not good ... but I would opt for the one that can operate in 10-30V DC range.

Here is some more info, an example and not the endorsement ...
LED Drivers for marine LEDs

The nav lights on my boat were switched to marine LEDs five seasons ago including all around anchor light that I use often, still going strong and no problems. All other lights on my boat were switched to marine LEDs two seasons ago, no problems so far.

 

[boatpoker]

Good question ... the answer might be complicated.

The LEDs intended for home do not require much voltage regulation/protection built in as they come with own 12V DC power supply which is intended to be connected to fairly stable source of 120V AC household outlet. They will perform well in fairly narrow range of voltage fluctuation.
QUOTE]

My 5 year success with Ikea lights included throwing away the 12v power supply that came with them and wiring directly to existing 12v, battery source.

 

[Moonstruck]

After 3 years of use on Moonstruck, the LEDs are so far so good. When on the boat some are on constantly. We replaced all but running lights. About 60 bulbs in all. Before, I was always changing bulbs especially the little courtesy lights. They have cut our house electric other than refrigeration to almost nil.

By the way the little wedge base bulbs for instrument panels are great behind your electric panel. You can get them in several colors. In the picture several lights are on. Notice the low amp draw on the top right gauge.

One bulb blew on install. I called super bright. They just mailed another no questions asked. I love 'em!

 

[rwidman]

Drivers on LED lights or fixtures do two things:

1) They regulate the voltage (actually the current that passes through the LED) so they aren't damaged by high voltage or "spikes". A millisecond high voltage spike can ruin an LED or any semi conductor.

2) Drivers allow the bulb or fixture's designer to get the most light possible out of the LEDs without the risk of damaging them. LED assemblies that use resistors to control the current must be designed for the highest expected voltage (let's say 15 volts). That means when the charging system is not operating, there's bit more than 12 volts available and the light is less than it should be.

While driverless fixtures from the home center or whatever will work, ones made for cars, trucks and boats with built in drivers will provide more light and be more reliable in the long run. Having a constant current driver is the important thing.

But, as always, you pay your money and you take your choice.

 

[ksanders]

My 5 year success with Ikea lights included throwing away the 12v power supply that came with them and wiring directly to existing 12v, battery source.

Yea, my cheap ones are still working as well. 64 bulbs, one year of recreational use, zero failures.

If you buy a cheap LED bulb at $1.50 you could replace it ten times and still be money ahead of the "marine" bulb that costs $20

Heck, the halogen bulbs I replaced cost almost $5.00 at west marine, and we all know they dont last.

I like that kind of math

 

[obthomas]

Drivers on LED lights or fixtures do two things:

1) They regulate the voltage (actually the current that passes through the LED) so they aren't damaged by high voltage or "spikes". A millisecond high voltage spike can ruin an LED or any semi conductor.

2) Drivers allow the bulb or fixture's designer to get the most light possible out of the LEDs without the risk of damaging them. LED assemblies that use resistors to control the current must be designed for the highest expected voltage (let's say 15 volts). That means when the charging system is not operating, there's bit more than 12 volts available and the light is less than it should be.

While driverless fixtures from the home center or whatever will work, ones made for cars, trucks and boats with built in drivers will provide more light and be more reliable in the long run. Having a constant current driver is the important thing.

But, as always, you pay your money and you take your choice.

I believe every word of what you say. The problem is your details get lost when the situation is like a coat hook on the back of a door. You can buy one very expensive excellent tolerances and finish or you could just use a nail.

 

[boatpoker]

I believe every word of what you say. The problem is your details get lost when the situation is like a coat hook on the back of a door. You can buy one very expensive excellent tolerances and finish or you could just use a nail.

I like it ....
The US spent millions of dollars developing a pen to Mil Specs that would write upside down in space ...... the Russians used a pencil

 

[hollywood8118]

I like it ....
The US spent millions of dollars developing a pen to Mil Specs that would write upside down in space ...... the Russians used a pencil

both of these last two comments were spot on....

I have never had a " cheap" led fail yet.. and the voltage swings from -12v to +14v... mine ( 30+) were all less than $ 3.00 each.

It could be the naysayers are all trying to justify the $20.00 Dr Led's they bought...

Pencils!.. I love it

HOLLYWOOD

 

[Richard W]

... or could be the naysayers justifying their cheap choices ...
Hope they are willing to spend more on the LED nav lights ... just saying ...

 

[N4712]

We bought our leds at Super Bright Leds and have no failures so far, for our 1142 style ones we paid $27, and on our G4 lights they were about $9. we feel we did just fine, didn't cheap out on anything so why do it with lights, something that's used on a daily basis?.

 

[obthomas]

... or could be the naysayers justifying their cheap choices ...
Hope they are willing to spend more on the LED nav lights ... just saying ...

The only lights I have not changed to LED are my Navigation lights, and that is precisely because there are no cheap LEDs approved for Navigation Fixtures.

As for cheaping out, I couldn't be in yachting if I didn't watch my pennies and I don't consider myself poor.

 

[ksanders]

We bought our leds at Super Bright Leds and have no failures so far, for our 1142 style ones we paid $27, and on our G4 lights they were about $9. we feel we did just fine, didn't cheap out on anything so why do it with lights, something that's used on a daily basis?.

I keep my boat in first class condition. I do not cheap out on anything either, and my boat is filled with plenty of examples of taking the more expensive route than some others would consider necessary, but I want the very best for my boat.

I bought led lights off of ebay last winter as a "try it" thing. I paid 1.30 each for 75 bulbs and figured I'd try them out. I was going to just buy one or two and felt like a cheapskate so I bought the whole boat worth. My rational was that if they didn't work, it wouldn't be the first or the last $100 I threw away.

It just so happened they worked great. Posting my experiences here is meant to help others who might be facing the same dilemma that I did.

 

[FF]

The only lights I have not changed to LED are my Navigation lights, and that is precisely because there are no cheap LEDs approved for Navigation Fixtures.

APPROVED is the key word here , although most times the engine is operating so electric draw does not matter.

The anchor light and Red over Red (not under command) might be the battery required exceptions.

 

[psneeld]

Lights installed by recreational boat owners don't have t be "approved" the just have to meet the NAVRULES requirements...most manufactured ones don't meet the sector requirements s far as I'm concerned so I don't see it as a big deal using whatever you feel comfortable with....I would just make sure they are at least as bright or brighter than the originals.

 

[rwidman]

I believe every word of what you say. The problem is your details get lost when the situation is like a coat hook on the back of a door. You can buy one very expensive excellent tolerances and finish or you could just use a nail.

That's not a valid analogy. A nail will hold a coat as well as a very expensive coat hook. Non-driver equipped LEDs or fixtures do not perform as well as the ones with drivers. They waste energy in the resistor voltage dropping circuit and they will vary in brightness when the voltage varies (as it will when charging or using high draw appliances).

As I posted above, you pay your money and you take your choice. Is your boat suited for a nail or for a coat hook?

As for navigation light LED replacements, there are many lamps on the market that are designed for this application. The main points are, the angle of light and the color. Unlike incandescent lamps, you can't put a white LED behind a red or green lens and get the proper light. You have to use a red or green LED.

 

[ksanders]

That's not a valid analogy. A nail will hold a coat as well as a very expensive coat hook. Non-driver equipped LEDs or fixtures do not perform as well as the ones with drivers. They waste energy in the resistor voltage dropping circuit and they will vary in brightness when the voltage varies (as it will when charging or using high draw appliances).

As I posted above, you pay your money and you take your choice. Is your boat suited for a nail or for a coat hook?

Oh my gawd, the LED's for a buck will vary in brightness with changes in voltage! That is just unacceptable!

Wait! So did the Incandescent's they replaced!

 

[N4712]

Oh my gawd, the LED's for a buck will vary in brightness with changes in voltage! That is just unacceptable! Wait! So did the Incandescent's they replaced!

Gotta agree, that's a bunch of dog crap, or for our Aussie boys rocking horse poo.

 

[rwidman]

Oh my gawd, the LED's for a buck will vary in brightness with changes in voltage! That is just unacceptable!

Wait! So did the Incandescent's they replaced!

You are wrong, but I'm not going to convince you. Continue on with your nail.

 

[RickB]

Volts vs glow LED vs hot wire

 

[Richard W]

Lights installed by recreational boat owners don't have t be "approved" the just have to meet the NAVRULES requirements...

There is also an element of liability when s#it happens ... but that is another discussion.

 

[QB]

The US spent millions of dollars developing a pen to Mil Specs that would write upside down in space ...... the Russians used a pencil

snopes.com: NASA Space Pen

 

[psneeld]

There is also an element of liability when s#it happens ... but that is another discussion.

Not at all if you can show the lumens are high enough and you know enough about nav lights to show how the nav lights on even some USCG boats aren't legal.

You as a rec boat don't have to meet the USCG standard..manufacturers do...all you have to meet is the NAVRULEs.

 

[Richard W]

I was thinking more about fire or explosion that can be traced to a cheap, unprotected, or resistor only protected LED not approved for marine use ... a field day for a litigation lawyer.

Food for thought ... http://youtu.be/QdiAUovJ17w

 

[hypersloth]

That's it. I'm installing the oil lamps I took of my old sailboat and building fire pit on deck like Slocum had. Then I will be king of low draw lighting!

 

[ksanders]

You are wrong, but I'm not going to convince you. Continue on with your nail.

So, I'm wrong that incandescent lamps vary in brightness with voltage? Please don't even try to go there.

Please, what exactly am I wrong about? (I'm wrong about allot so let's stick to the post I made )

The only logical argument I can see from a practical standpoint is that the marine led's take the uncertainty out of the equation. I can accept that.

But for you or anybody else to tell not only me, but the several other forum members that their real life experiences with non "marine" led's are "cheeping out" or any other phrase meant to imply that we do not do the very best for our boats is absolutely unfounded.

 

[ksanders]

Volts vs glow LED vs hot wire

Thanks Rick!

 

[Richard W]

The only logical argument I can see from a practical standpoint is that the marine led's take the uncertainty out of the equation. I can accept that.

But for you or anybody else to tell not only me, but the several other forum members that their real life experiences with non "marine" led's are "cheeping out" or any other phrase meant to imply that we do not do the very best for our boats is absolutely unfounded.

Everybody is entitled to the own opinion and own conclusions. Let's separate personal and emotion side from technical specs, application and standards.

You as a rec boat don't have to meet the USCG standard..manufacturers do...all you have to meet is the NAVRULEs.

You do not have to meet USCG standards, your boat does ... regardless of who built it or modified it after the fact. By doing it yourself you take the responsibility for the outcome, and liability is yours if the worst happens.

The USCG standards focus on the function and performance, and the "know how" is often only a footnote and the reference to boat building standards like ABYC, and other standards like UL, EMC, and many other codes and standards of the land (in the US). Below are two examples of what makes a light, or other part of electrical system a "marine" part ...

Marinebeam Nav Light ... the references to standards are mentioned in the description: LED Navigation Light Coast Guard Certified

Marinco/ANCOR lists all the standards their products meet on their Tech Info page (third column): ABYC Standards | Marinco

If you buy one of ANCOR LED bulbs ( http://www.marinco.com/productline/led-bulbs ), you know they are suitable for marine application. Surly IKEA has no knowledge of how these standards apply to boats, nor any duty to adhere to them. Same, or even worse, with Joe Blow working in his garage to "marinize" the garden variety LED bulbs, lights, or strings, to sell them as marine parts on eBay.

 

[psneeld]

Everybody is entitled to the own opinion and own conclusions. Let's separate personal and emotion side from technical specs, application and standards.



You do not have to meet USCG standards, your boat does ... regardless of who built it or modified it after the fact. By doing it yourself you take the responsibility for the outcome, and liability is yours if the worst happens.

The USCG standards focus on the function and performance, and the "know how" is often only a footnote and the reference to boat building standards like ABYC, and other standards like UL, EMC, and many other codes and standards of the land (in the US).

Here are two examples of what makes a light, or other part of electrical system a "marine" part.

Marinebeam Nav Light ... the references to standards are mentioned in the description: LED Navigation Light Coast Guard Certified

Marinco/ANCOR lists all the standards their products meet on their Tech Info page (third column): ABYC Standards | Marinco

If you buy one of ANCOR LED bulbs ( LED Bulbs | Marinco ), you know they are suitable for marine application. Surly IKEA has no knowledge of how these standards apply to boats, nor any duty to adhere to them. Same, or even worse, with Joe Blow working in his garage to "marinize" the garden variety LED bulbs, lights, or strings, and sell them as marine parts on eBay.

So far from reality it hardly requires comment.

Marine investigations and hearings will focus on compliance to the laws that apply. If your lights meet a lumen and sector standard...they don't have a thing to say about it other than....oh yeah ....WHAT?

Builder requirements do NOT apply to recreational owners....

As long as you meet the NAVRULES, USCG safety requirements and the state's laws you are in.....ABYC, USCG standards, UL and any other's you think about don't mean diddly...

Now if you are sued...for whatever reason...you do have to substantiate your actions...but meeting some non applicable standard doesn't get you off the hook either...knowing the rules inside and out is what gets you to make the other guy's lawyer look like a tool....been there...done that....

 

[rwidman]

............ Builder requirements do NOT apply to recreational owners....

As long as you meet the NAVRULES, USCG safety requirements and the state's laws you are in.....ABYC, USCG standards, UL and any other's you think about don't mean diddly.............. .

There was a time when sailboaters hung a kerosene lantern from the mast for an anchor light. Not a Coast Guard approved kerosene lantern, just a standard, of the shelf one.

Seriously now, if you have Perko navigation lamps (incandescent) do you buy your replacement bulbs from Perko or just use generic replacements? Does Perko have a lamp factory?

Anything that fits and meets the law is fine.

 

[rwidman]

So, I'm wrong that incandescent lamps vary in brightness with voltage? Please don't even try to go there.

Please, what exactly am I wrong about? (I'm wrong about allot so let's stick to the post I made )

The only logical argument I can see from a practical standpoint is that the marine led's take the uncertainty out of the equation. I can accept that.

But for you or anybody else to tell not only me, but the several other forum members that their real life experiences with non "marine" led's are "cheeping out" or any other phrase meant to imply that we do not do the very best for our boats is absolutely unfounded.

I'm not arguing that you need "marine" lights (except for the navigation lights), I'm arguing that you will do far better with lights that are equipped with constant current drivers. I thought I was clear about that.

In the curve posted above, LEDs with a constant current driver would have had the same light output throughout their design voltage, usually 9 to 30 volts. They don't dim when you shut off the engine and run a water pump and they don't fail when you have a high voltage, short duration spike.