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Old 01-13-2014, 07:44 AM   #61
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What I think you are missing is people that have been running the "inexpensive" lights either don't notice their shortcoming or don't care and have seen much better reliability than first reported by some.

So the "argument" that "you'll do much better" is kind of hollow...

Like many discussions here like oil where some say synthetic oil or "only as the manufacturer recommends" is the only way to go but the guy who has been running Walmart 15W40 for the last 10,000 hours with clean analysis says "really????"
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Old 01-13-2014, 09:02 AM   #62
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What I think you are missing is people that have been running the "inexpensive" lights either don't notice their shortcoming or don't care and have seen much better reliability than first reported by some.


I'm pretty fussy when it comes to serious stuff like propane systems, inverter, battery and battery charger systems and would not take a chance on nav lights but interior lights ! Not so much of a fuss.
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Old 01-13-2014, 09:43 AM   #63
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I'm not arguing that you need "marine" lights (except for the navigation lights), I'm arguing that you will do far better with lights that are equipped with constant current drivers. I thought I was clear about that.

In the curve posted above, LEDs with a constant current driver would have had the same light output throughout their design voltage, usually 9 to 30 volts. They don't dim when you shut off the engine and run a water pump and they don't fail when you have a high voltage, short duration spike.

I agree with the concept that constant current driven LEDs won't vary with voltage, although I beleive that ricks diagram does in fact show a varying voltage to lumen output relationship.

My point was that the incasdecants they replace did change output based on voltage, so if the project scope is to use led lights to deliver the same performance as incandesant lamps then there is no need to pay for the more expensive current regulated models.

If the increased performance (over incandesant lamps) of current regulated LEDs justifies the cost then by all means pay the cost.
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Old 01-13-2014, 09:47 AM   #64
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IMHO the last ten or so posts are like blowing air in a paper bag. All my fixtures on my 1985 yacht had incandescent automobile bulbs. Except for navigation I now have Chinese LEDs everywhere. One thing I know for sure is that I saved a lot of money, and I am pretty sure I didn't compromise any safety.
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:53 AM   #65
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IMHO the last ten or so posts are like blowing air in a paper bag. All my fixtures on my 1985 yacht had incandescent automobile bulbs. Except for navigation I now have Chinese LEDs everywhere. One thing I know for sure is that I saved a lot of money, and I am pretty sure I didn't compromise any safety.
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Old 01-13-2014, 12:44 PM   #66
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One thing I know for sure is that I saved a lot of money, and I am pretty sure I didn't compromise any safety.
Are you? Have you checked the government and consumer recall lists? Here is a sample of well known brands with LED problems ...

Some LED light bulbs catching fire | HLNtv.com
LED Light Bulbs Recalled by Lighting Science Group Due to Fire Hazard | CPSC.gov
LED Candelabra Lights Recalled by Infinity Green Products Due to Fire Hazard (Recall Alert) | CPSC.gov
Manufacturer recalls 554,000 LED bulbs from four major brands

Was the Chinese LED manufacturer even registered and their product vetted for household use? No ... not traceable, a gray market product? Too bad!

To each his own ...
I am not taking the chances, especially with a gasoline powered boat, no sir!
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:13 PM   #67
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Are you? Have you checked the government and consumer recall lists? Here is a sample of well known brands with LED problems ...

Some LED light bulbs catching fire | HLNtv.com
LED Light Bulbs Recalled by Lighting Science Group Due to Fire Hazard | CPSC.gov
LED Candelabra Lights Recalled by Infinity Green Products Due to Fire Hazard (Recall Alert) | CPSC.gov
Manufacturer recalls 554,000 LED bulbs from four major brands

Was the Chinese LED manufacturer even registered and their product vetted for household use? No ... not traceable, a gray market product? Too bad!

To each his own ...
I am not taking the chances, especially with a gasoline powered boat, no sir!
what kind of car do you drive? Isn't that about the same number of cars Toyota recalled last time...
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:28 PM   #68
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As I said ... to each his own ... I don't take the risk if I can avoid it or minimize it. S#it happens, ignorance is a choice.
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:50 PM   #69
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Are you? Have you checked the government and consumer recall lists? Here is a sample of well known brands with LED problems ...

Some LED light bulbs catching fire | HLNtv.com
LED Light Bulbs Recalled by Lighting Science Group Due to Fire Hazard | CPSC.gov
LED Candelabra Lights Recalled by Infinity Green Products Due to Fire Hazard (Recall Alert) | CPSC.gov
Manufacturer recalls 554,000 LED bulbs from four major brands

Was the Chinese LED manufacturer even registered and their product vetted for household use? No ... not traceable, a gray market product? Too bad!

To each his own ...
I am not taking the chances, especially with a gasoline powered boat, no sir!
Richard, did you actually read the articles you posted?
Did you think about how they apply to a boat?

I started going through the articles you posted with great interest. Then I realized at they are not about led lights per se. They are about led lights and their built in 120 volt power supplies.

This is not applicable to a boat. I do not know how your boat is wired, but my current boat, and the 5 other ocean going powerboats I've owned utilized 12 volt lighting.

I'd be happy to read some articles about the subject at hand, which is 12 volt led lamps, specifically interior lamps. Do you have some data on them?
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Old 01-13-2014, 02:11 PM   #70
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I am not taking the chances, especially with a gasoline powered boat, no sir!
I am taking less chances with Ikea LED's (5yrs full time liveaboard, no trouble) than you are with a gasoline powered boat

How about a gasoline powered boat with an alcohol stove and Ikea LED's
Figure the life expectancy of what ? 10 - 15 minutes
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Old 01-13-2014, 02:15 PM   #71
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I am taking less chances with Ikea LED's than you are with a gasoline powered boat Do a youtube search on boat fire, marina fir, boatyard fire. I've investigated dozens of boat fires, every single one gasoline powered.
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Old 01-13-2014, 02:16 PM   #72
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I use these to rebuild my fixtures and don't have any of the voltage reducing clap trap that burns up.

10 Sets 48 SMD 3528 LED Panel Car Interior White Light Lamp DC 12V | eBay
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Old 01-13-2014, 03:13 PM   #73
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I am taking less chances with Ikea LED's (5yrs full time liveaboard, no trouble) than you are with a gasoline powered boat
We can go on a tangent and distract from the issue forever ...

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Richard, did you actually read the articles you posted?
1. Did you think about how they apply to a boat?

...

2. I'd be happy to read some articles about the subject at hand, which is 12 volt led lamps, specifically interior lamps. Do you have some data on them?
1. I did ... and posted as the examples which illustrate the nature of LED lighting ... it's not like a traditional bulb that can burn out and go dark, but a device that can burn up and in flames.

The use examples in this topic mentioned using 120V AC domestic LED assemblies in 12V DC install by cutting off the power supply (transformer and whatever electronics/protection was built into it). That might work ... up to the point. Most catastrophic failures is a chain of events and not a single mistake.

2. To me the best case in point is the video, I posted the link to before, that demonstrated the unstable and flammable nature of some LED assemblies ... here is that link again: Smoking Bulb - YouTube

Here is one of the 12V DC examples you have asked for:
LED Lamps Recalled by Eco-Story Due to Fire Hazard | CPSC.gov

The problem is, you will learn about it after the fact. The most imports from China are not checked nor vetted before they hit the market.

Going with known marine brand minimizes the risk ... that's all what matters to me.
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Old 01-13-2014, 03:26 PM   #74
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Here is one of the 12V DC examples you have asked for:
LED Lamps Recalled by Eco-Story Due to Fire Hazard | CPSC.gov
Try Again...The above recall is all about not using a type 2 transformer. The problem is in converting 120V to 12 volts and not limiting the power.

Those of us that have been on the other side of the discussion from you are using 12 volts and are not using the transformers. We therefore don't see the windmill you are tilting at.
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Old 01-13-2014, 04:45 PM   #75
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and as most of us know...the marine ones were made on the same assembly line and got the different bubble packaging.....
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Old 01-13-2014, 05:49 PM   #76
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I for one have a real problem with the video.

First, it's produced by a company as advertising for their competing product.

The big question is why have no fires been reported on boats or RV's?

If these lamps were so dangerous why are boats not burning up?

Why in a google search can we find no fire reports?

Why???

What, probably hundreds of thousand bulbs sold for rv and boats and cars, and no actual fires. Why is that?

My father in law has a saying, and it's a good one...

"The more someone has to gain from what they tell you, the less you should believe them"
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Old 01-13-2014, 06:33 PM   #77
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There was a time when sailboaters hung a kerosene lantern from the mast for an anchor light..... just a standard, off the shelf one.
Did that many years ago, on a little Santana 22 after a 20 mile offshore transit under kite. Hoisted it on the headsail halyard, with a line attached below to the forestay. Stayed lit all night, no one hit us. Secluded bay though.
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Old 01-13-2014, 06:39 PM   #78
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I agree with the concept that constant current driven LEDs won't vary with voltage, although I beleive that ricks diagram does in fact show a varying voltage to lumen output relationship..
If the current through the LEDs remains constant, the light output remains constant regardless of the voltage applied to the circuit. The diagram doesn't apply with the constant current driver.

You pay your money and you take your choice. If you're satisfied with the cheap ones, by all means, that's what you should use. If you're looking for something better, a few more $$ will get you that.
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Old 01-13-2014, 08:02 PM   #79
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No one has proven/shown what "better" is and that's what the counterpoint is...

Better...is subjective.... and indefensible unless almost if not all factors are equal.
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:40 PM   #80
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Try Again...The above recall is all about not using a type 2 transformer. The problem is in converting 120V to 12 volts and not limiting the power.
If a simple step down transformer type 1 vs type 2 can cause the LED assembly to burn, imagine what the inherently unstable power supply on a boat can cause. Read more about it below ...

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I for one have a real problem with the video.

1. First, it's produced by a company as advertising for their competing product.

2. The big question is why have no fires been reported on boats or RV's? … Why in a google search can we find no fire reports?

1. I think it was a simple demonstration of what overvoltage does to some cheap LED assemblies. No magic, no tricks … you can replicate the experiment yourself. Most LED assemblies rated for 12V DC only will fail.

2. There are reports … it's a matter of how diligent is your research. Here are just a few:

Boat: TWICE, Boat Catches Fire - LED Lights [Archive] - FishTheClassic.net

RV: Led light warning!! Can cause fire!! - iRV2 Forums

Home (as general awareness): Cheap Chinese LEDs lead to aquarium fire at Arizona community center preschool

One more post about LEDs and boats ( LED Strip Used on Boats [Archive] - Yachting and Boating World Forums ) which brings me to the conclusion on why the 10-30V DC LED assemblies with current drivers are better and safer on a boat than their cheaper 12V DC resistor protected counterparts.

The 12V DC power on a boat is not stable and not suitable for unprotected LEDs or any other electronics (yes, LED assemblies are electronics). The flaky alternator/voltage regulator, or overeager battery charger, or many other things going on a boat, can damage the unprotected LED circuit and lead to a fire hazard.

The case in point and the reference to the video where the 14.8V DC was applied to a LED circuit and damaged it in 90 seconds: most marine battery chargers operate 14.6-14.8V DC in flooded battery mode, 15.0-15.1V DC in calcium mode, and whopping 15.5-16.0V DC in equalization mode. I rest my case …

For the hard core readers interested in the difference between a simple low voltage light bulb that can just burn out (or a fuse, they are basically the same creatures), here is a list of many potential failures of a single LED diode related to cheap manufacturing or improper application: List of LED failure modes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, thank you for reading. I am done with this public awareness campaign, and going back to my search for my perfect trawler …
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