Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-05-2013, 06:57 PM   #61
Senior Member
 
mahal's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 436
This is depressing. My boat is wired with un-tinned wire therefore is at risk of catching fire. And this is just weeks after I learned that my boat is prone to sinking because it's a twin screw. Anything else?
__________________
Advertisement

mahal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 07:00 PM   #62
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,994
Greetings,
Mr. swampu. The choice of wire is your call and you know MY feeling on the subject. As far as "skimping"...I see nothing you mentioned in your post to suggest any skimps. Items 1 thru 4 should work just fine. I've never had any experience with the Pex plumbing you speak of but I think some members have used it with success. One question I might as regarding the wiring runs. Are you going to use conduit or wire chases at all? Just thinking WAAAY down the road. If you run conduit to each of your wall outlets or some dead/dummy runs it might make it easier for future changes. Just a thought.
Regarding the "best". I want to know where you're going to source your 24k gold wire hangers. That 18k stuff is just junk!
__________________

__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 07:15 PM   #63
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoF1 View Post
Britt... It's thinking like that which continues to make boating more expensive for all of us. Still, think about this for a second... If you use the correct connections and shrink it right, then moisture won't get in. Then please explain to me why you need to spend all that extra money on tinned wire?
no no, not tinned wire, just wire designed for the marine environment. There is marine spec wire both tinned and non tinned. I believe that the connectors used for the non tinned marine wire are different than for tinned. Oh, and there is non marine spec wire that exceeds marine spec.
You know years ago when i got into boat repairs it was out of requests from people at the marina that liked my work. i used to help them and one day i decided to start my own repair business because helping others was taking too much time. I learned by making mistakes that just because it worked didn't mean it was right. That became evident when i would cut corners to save money because i didn't have much money and then had to do the job over again. I'm not a genius but i did understand that doing the job more than once was usually more expensive than just doing the job right the first time. With my back ground in electrical engineering i had lots of requests from people with boat electrical problems and many of those problems were the result of home depot parts installed by the vessel owners. Most common failure was the result of use of those cheap connectors sold in boxes with different sizes in the discount auto parts stores. Another problem was wire used made from alloys of copper that salt air ate up. Your right, if you encapsulate this low grade conductor in a fully water proof coating you can expect it to last provided the increased resistance of this wire doesn't cause an issue with over heating. You could over come that issue by over sizing the wire for additional cost which will enable it to carry more amps with less heat. But, if you take all the proper measures to insure the cheap wiring will last then you likely have spent more or as much money as if you would have just bought the correct wire to begin with. Wire is like a pipe and depending upon the combination of metals used in its construction will have a certain resistance to the flow of electricity. This resistance limits the amount of current the wire can carry safely without over heating. An engineer when he designs a system will calculate the total load and size the wiring accordingly. He will list the spec in his drawings for the wire so the builder can choose the proper wire. When the engineer signs off on the design he can be held liable for damages that result from his design so he makes sure he dots all his I's and crosses his T's but he is human and mistakes happen. Most of the time when a bridge falls or other major failure due to what appears to be an engineering error it often turns out to be because the contractor cut corners to save money by using materials not spec ed. the San Francisco bay bridge was about to collapse a few years ago after the rebuild because of the earthquake and the engineer was blamed but it was later found the failure was due to the contractor using non spec concrete.

The bottom line is the specs are there for a reason. Its your choice. Just remember, the decisions you make regarding major electrical systems on your boat if wrong could sink your vessel with a resulting loss of property and life.
__________________
Britt
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 07:47 PM   #64
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahal View Post
This is depressing. My boat is wired with un-tinned wire therefore is at risk of catching fire. And this is just weeks after I learned that my boat is prone to sinking because it's a twin screw. Anything else?
chuckle, if your boat was built in a reputable boat yard I'm sure they used wire of the proper marine spec which does include non tinned wire. It aint gonna sink....ah oh, i forgot twin screw...your right, better get a life insurance policy on her asap......
__________________
Britt
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 09:26 PM   #65
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,853
Does anyone know what marine spec wire is? ...and who sets those standards???

And not just some engineering standard that applies to 99 percent of all comparable wiring....
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 09:38 PM   #66
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,248
Wire??!! Mine is all covered. And I don't have a clue. Here there is one electrical line to a fuel pump, and then there is a water line, and the remainder are fuel lines.

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 07:52 AM   #67
JAT
Guru
 
JAT's Avatar
 
Country: US
Vessel Name: Just a Tinch
Vessel Model: Gulfstar 44 MC
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by swampu View Post
While I am getting kicked around here are some more skimps I plan on:
1. Florescent lights in the bilge will be el' cheepo with plastic covers. (for now just to get rid of the string lights)
2. Pex for the water lines?
3. Copper line for the fuel (flared fittings)
4. Cheep used (400lb) ice maker on the roof.
For what its worth...every wire that was used in the building of our boat.... was untinned stranded wire.... I haven't had to do any major rewiring jobs other than replacing a battery cable or two....actually putting in wiring that is additional as opposed to replacing.

1....As opposed to florescent lights....you might want to consider LED lights like the ones that superbrightleds.com sells. More light, longer life, and quite possibly lower cost. I've used a number of these on our boat, especially in the engine room... They work great and are wired to the boats 12V system directly:
WFLB series 96 LED Waterproof Flexible Light Bar | Side Emitting | Flexible LED Light Strips | LED Light Strips & Bars | Super Bright LEDs

2. Pex? Why not.... I would.

3. Copper fuel line? Why not.

4. Low priced ice maker...why not?
JAT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 08:16 AM   #68
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
oh never mind...hate being drug down to your level and beat up....
So what's the point in your post?
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 08:20 AM   #69
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoF1 View Post
Britt... It's thinking like that which continues to make boating more expensive for all of us. Still, think about this for a second... If you use the correct connections and shrink it right, then moisture won't get in. Then please explain to me why you need to spend all that extra money on tinned wire?
It's not really that much more money compared to non-tinned marine wire. Of course it's a lot more than solid building wire from the home center.

Stranded boat cable is quite different than stranded building wire. Big difference.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 08:25 AM   #70
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by swampu View Post
............. I was asking if non tinned stranded wire would be an option and if anyone else has done that. ............
Non-tinned stranded building wire from the home center is not the same as non-tinned marine wire so if that's what you're planning on using, it's a bad idea in my opinion.

"Has anyone else done that?" No doubt they have. Is it your aspiration to do the least you can get away with or to do a first class job you can be proud of?

Using the proper materials will add very little to the total cost of the job and it's a very small percentage of what your boat is (probably) worth.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 08:35 AM   #71
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
So what's the point in your post?
You too......
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 10:33 AM   #72
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,783
The OEM main fuel lines on my Hatteras are all copper, other than where they connect to or on the engines themselves. PEX type semi flexible plumbing and slide on connectors are used on a lot of high end boats, great for this application. I like the flood of light provided by fluorescents in the ERs and generator room, installed by a thoughtful PO. Haven't had to change one out yet in 6 years of daily use. Do have DC powered incandescents in there too.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 11:48 AM   #73
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
The bottom line is the specs are there for a reason. Its your choice. Just remember, the decisions you make regarding major electrical systems on your boat if wrong could sink your vessel with a resulting loss of property and life.
If you say so...

(allow me to channel my inner RT Firefly)
Attached Images
 
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 11:53 AM   #74
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,994
Greetings,
Good God Mr. Gonz'. You're one sick puppy...
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 12:04 PM   #75
Guru
 
ancora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,489
While we are on a wiring subject, my Taiwan trawler has welding cable for all the battery connections, yet passed a survey. I was going to change over but recoiled at the cost of proper cable.
ancora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 01:10 PM   #76
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancora View Post
While we are on a wiring subject, my Taiwan trawler has welding cable for all the battery connections, yet passed a survey. I was going to change over but recoiled at the cost of proper cable.
That is a very good point. My Taiwanese trawler has (un-tinned) welding cable as its primary DC power cable as well and passed a survery in 2009. And yes, I too thought about replacing it last year and was scared off by the cost (even after an EXTENSIVE search for un-tinned 000 awg wire). In hindsight, I with the surveyor would have done a better job of pointing out how woefully inadequate the wiring job was with respect to the battery connectors.

My engine has had a history of slow starts. I have since replaced/rebuilt the starter in 2011 and it did help some, but the connector were VERY cheap-o punch-crimped, corroded, and sealed with electrical tape. When last year's big DC upgrade project happened, I cut back the welding wire just about an inch, put a proper crimped lug on it, and used thick shrink insulation. Now, Dr. Perky (yes, my Perkins engine has a name) fires up VERY strong.

IU suspect it will outlast the hull's life now :-)

Here is the mess I ended up replacing


__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 03:49 PM   #77
Senior Member
 
funangler's Avatar
 
City: Erie PA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Endless Endeavor
Vessel Model: Custom
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 214
I have used pex for two boats no problems very forgiving to work with. I like Tinned wire for anywhere I am going to stress the load capacity. Non tinned for things I can live without.
funangler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 04:37 PM   #78
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
PEX is fine for potable water systems on boats. My boat came from the factory plumbed with PEX tubing.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 07:01 PM   #79
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Does anyone know what marine spec wire is? ...and who sets those standards???

And not just some engineering standard that applies to 99 percent of all comparable wiring....
I think I posted a link which listed the types and had links to more detailed specs.
Here is a link to the UL standard but requires a purchase. GRRRR....
.Psneeld, I thank you for forcing me to research in more depth this issue instead of trusting the so called " experts", in regards to this spec.

ul-1309.2

coast gaurd spec is in title 33 CFR part 183.430

I think SAE spec is under GPT J1128 & J378 also meets marine specs.

There is more The Code of Federal Regulations of the United States of America - Google Books

Goverment code title 33 ( parts 125 to 199)
SAE J378-1984 marine engine wiring 183.5: 183.430
J357_1968 high tension ignition cable 183.5: 183.440
J1127-1980 battery cable 183.5: 183.430
J1128-1975 low tension promary cable 183.5: 183.430
J1527-1985 marine fuel hoses 183.5: 183.540

I hate goverment regulation!! GRRRRRR........

I think that covers it and i even included the marine spec for fuel hoses.
__________________
Britt
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 08:55 PM   #80
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by funangler View Post
I have used pex for two boats no problems very forgiving to work with. I like Tinned wire for anywhere I am going to stress the load capacity. Non tinned for things I can live without.
I'll tell you a secret if you promise to keep it under your hat? Sometimes one has to cut corners in emergency situations and i discovered by using a stretched wrap of scotch 33 then a coating of pvc glue let dry and then coat again I had a pretty water tight connection. I used this one day to wire a spare sub pump with a 2 inch outlet i needed to keep a beautiful old chris from sinking. I double wrapped the scotch 33 each with a coating of cement. I used used a heat gun and shink tube also and then in the bilge she went and that 2" hose started spitting out water like a fire house. That pump was used for many many years after that just like i had made it. Lets see, that was 1987, and i donated it in 2001 still as built. Don't know how many vessels that old stainless fountain pump saved but as far as I know its still working.
Oh, and this pump was grounded
__________________

__________________
Britt
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012