Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-27-2012, 01:54 PM   #61
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
GonzoF1 wrote:What do you make of this. Manual states:
Max. current starter 1150 Amps (!!!)
Sounds like "locked rotor current" and that does not represent typical starting loads.

In any event, that is not a long term load which is more likely around 500A or less and decreases very quickly as the engine turns over.

*

And by the way, solder does not get brittle. A poor soldering technique can produce a "cold solder joint" that looks granular and is mechanically and electrically defective but a solder itself does not get brittle.


-- Edited by RickB on Monday 27th of February 2012 02:57:20 PM
__________________
Advertisement

RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2012, 04:15 PM   #62
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
RickB wrote:GonzoF1 wrote:What do you make of this. Manual states:
Max. current starter 1150 Amps (!!!)
Sounds like "locked rotor current" and that does not represent typical starting loads.

In any event, that is not a long term load which is more likely around 500A or less and decreases very quickly as the engine turns over.

*

And by the way, solder does not get brittle. A poor soldering technique can produce a "cold solder joint" that looks granular and is mechanically and electrically defective but a solder itself does not get brittle.



-- Edited by RickB on Monday 27th of February 2012 02:57:20 PM

*Thanks for the correction, RIck. Hey, where have you been? Got a few email from me in you Inbox that I would love your expertise on. :-D
__________________

Tom.B is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2012, 06:59 PM   #63
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Just got back from a 5 week visit to Tahiti following up on the New Year's trip.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2012, 06:07 AM   #64
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Just a quick update:

It looks like time is now my big enemy. What started as a electrical and charging system upgrade morphed into three other semi-major projects that required more time (due to back-and-forth trips, test fits, and other challenges) than anticipated. Not to mention the cost have gotten a little high and I need to recover from them.

That said, Now that I have a new raw water system and battery tray that will hold up to seven batteries (once I fix a minor screw-up), I plan to sort of prop up my old charging system for the early part of this season. I dread spending all this time on projects that are supposed to enhance the boating season, then feel the pressure and some guilt if it causes the loss of any possible boating enjoyment.

My plan is to clean up all the connections with new high quality lug connectors and the addition of HD Blue Seas battery switches in the lower step for on/off and battery combine. I think that I can take small steps toward the goal over the summer by adding more buss bars, the new Iota charger and heavier wire runs. Besides that, I tested the batteries with a 130A load tester and they came up "Weak", so I will need to gather the cash to replace them too.

In the meantime, I have some wire samples on the way from Harbor Specialists so I can see the quality and decide what connectors I need to order from Grainger. I also really need to crack open the fuel tank access plate and try and clean the sludge out sooner rather than later. So for the time being, the big wonderful project upgrades will have to wait. I just didn't expect the raw water rig to take so long AND that I would need to build a new battery tray. Oh well... trying to learn patience these days and this is my first test of what I have learned.

For now, here is the new battery tray all epoxied and painted and ready to go. :-D (measure 50 times... cut once... and STILL make it 1/2" too short! Dammit!)


tray by GonzoF1, on Flickr
Tom.B is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 04:36 AM   #65
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,530
RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Sounds like "locked rotor current" and that does not represent typical starting loads.

Typical or not , the wiring must be able to take this load for an instant on every start .

IF crappy terminals or loose connections are in the circuit they will be heated , causing the resistance of the wire to be higher during the rest of the start sequence.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 07:50 AM   #66
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Right... I think.

Anyway, that reminds me that one of the other upgrades this season is to replace the power hungry direct-drive AC Delco starter with a much more miserly gear reduction starter I bought new last year as a backup. Move the Delco to backup duty to try and reduce the overall DC load.

Tom-
Tom.B is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 09:12 AM   #67
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
FF wrote:Typical or not , the wiring must be able to take this load for an instant on every start .
That is more than a bit misleading. If the wiring were sized to carry the locked rotor current it would require 4 or 5 4/0 cables in parallel.

Adding the words "for an instant" means that wiring sized for a typical starting current with a rapidly diminishing inrush of 500A or so is adequate and normal accepted practice. The temperature rise in a normal start is negligible.

What size conductors do you think are inside the starter motor itself?
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 10:40 AM   #68
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Here are some pics of what I am up against and why this whole thing started.

These are bits I cut off last week to bring home and size. The smaller it the cable going to the DC panel and the larger gauge is the starter positive wire.


a by GonzoF1, on Flickr

A closer inspection of the CURRENT state of my starter lug! YIKES!


b by GonzoF1, on Flickr

Removal of the tape is even more scary. How anyone thinks this is ok is beyond me.


c by GonzoF1, on Flickr

The cables are coming from one vendor and the lugs are coming from another. The cable vendor's lugs are open-end and I would rater use the MUCH higher quality Quik-Cable lugs. So I got samples of all of them to test the fit. It all came today :-)


d by GonzoF1, on Flickr

Finally, I made my first crimp. It looks like the 1/0 lug fits best, but I may try the 2/0 on it too and see how it goes.


e by GonzoF1, on Flickr
Tom.B is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 12:20 PM   #69
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Somewhere
Country: , Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer sedan 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,872
RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Use the proper lug barrel size for the wire or you will again have a poor crimp. If the barrel is too big it will not compress properly. Even though you can't pull it off you will have a poor crimp with gaps that will later cause hard to find trouble.


Part of the trouble with the old ones is the installer should have put the crimper anvil on the other side. Instead he split the brazed joint and of course the strands should have come all the way through to be a bit proud of the barrel.

Anyways you will have fun and know it will be better for the future.
C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 01:01 PM   #70
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Thanks Clark...

I have a question for the expert though. Can the lug be too small? For instance, the 3/0 wire can be massaged into a 2/0 lug. 4/0 wire can get into a 3/0 lug. Etc. That makes me wonder if my test wire should have a 2/0 lug on it. It was a bit of a tight fit to get into the 1/0 lug shown above.

Tom-
Tom.B is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 01:01 PM   #71
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,530
RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Proper crimpers are great , but few own them.

Set the crimp tight with a ground dull chisel and simply dunk the end in a ladle full of solder.

A propane torch will melt a coil into a cast iron ladle .

The requirement is the terminal end must be mechanically secured AND electrically secured.

The above works , and proper color shrink tape makes it look professional.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 11:33 PM   #72
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Somewhere
Country: , Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer sedan 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,872
RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Keep in mind the lugs are engineered to work as part of a system. So is your crimper. Use the proper parts correctly and you will have a good job, otherwise maybe not.

Yes it is possible to massage a wire into the next size lug barrel down, SOMETIMES.

However, these lugs , assuming you have good quality lugs, should be bought for the wire size to work properly.

There is more to it than just getting the wire in.

You will actually thin the copper barrel in the crimp area, not noticeable to you maybe, but the result could be a less than satisfactory grip on the conductor and the barrel subject to later cracking.
C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 08:43 AM   #73
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
Another quick update:

I came down a day early this weekend and spent all day yesterday "updating" the wiring as described above. I made new jumper wires between the four house batteries, new lugs on all the welding wires and at both the starer's lug and the primary ground lug.

One thing I didn't anticipate was that the new lugs are FAR thicker than the old. Seeing that the new plan is just to (and I hate to use this term) prop it up for the Spring boating season, I didn't think that more than one lug on the battery terminal would be all that will fit. (yes, I know you shouldn't do that)

Sooooooo... The workaround is to use a couple of 600A Blue Sea buss bars and divide the starter battery all up (main starter, genset starter, and windlass).

The upside to all of this is this... In the past, it seemed like the starter struggled (albeit only a little) to spin-up the Perkins 6.354. When I tested it yesterday, it has NEVER started stronger. I mean, I was surprised at how strong she rotated and started!

Today I change coolant and oil for the season and we should be set. I'll get some pics taken today of the new wiring setup.
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 05:39 PM   #74
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,530
I was surprised at how strong she rotated and started!

You might have had the same results by just cleaning everything.

One tip is to only use COPPER to join terminal ends .

Copper not SS or brass or bronze , sold on line for high voltage use tho ideal for most boat stuff.

If you have a friend that works for a power company , Creative Begging , should garner a bucket full of the real thing.

FF
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 03:53 PM   #75
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
I tried to install the battery monitor last weekend. apparently, the house panel has it's own ground (that STILL makes it to the block thru a yet-to-be-determined route and I want to think it's thru the bonding system). So the ground I planned on using doesn't show what the house load is (or any load for that matter, except when I try to start the main). Sooooooo, I need to move the panel ground to the main ground buss bar and bring a ground wire over from the house batteries. Problem is, I am all out of lugs the correct size. *heavy sigh* There sure are more wires, even for my summer temp job, than I thought there would be. Dang.

I will try to get those pics this weekend of the progress. Bess keeps forgetting the camera.
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 09:14 PM   #76
JD
Guru
 
JD's Avatar
 
City: New Bern NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stella Di Mare
Vessel Model: Mainship 34t
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoF1 View Post
I will try to get those pics this weekend of the progress. Bess keeps forgetting the camera.
Yea blame it on her. I think it was Jello's fault myself.
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 07:17 AM   #77
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,530
One thing I didn't anticipate was that the new lugs are FAR thicker than the old.

NAPA and other sources have terminals that change the common battery barrel terminal
to a style of flag terminal.

NAPA catalog calls them "military" style terminals , cheap by the box . They fit well so a box of P and N are required to do a good job.Perhaps $5.00 each.

FF
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2012, 08:51 AM   #78
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
UPDATE - As I said above, I have had to "shortcut" the project a little to get Skinny Dippin' up and going for the season and control the overall costs. I plan on taking on the few remaining pieces of this project a little at a time over the course of the summer.

I still need to mount all this to a breadboard of some kind, add the new Iota charger, move the alternator wiring to the house bank, add the echo charger, and generally clean up the install. Although, I am surprised at how many wires I have ended up with. It's looking like it's not going to be NEARLY as neat of an install as I had envisioned it being. Pity.

I just wanted to add a few more pictures to the archive.

1) The switch bank in the stairs
2) New battery cables (new batteries since pic was taken)
3, 4, 5) A few shots of the layout
6) The pass-thru up to the switches and wires over the batteries
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	switchstep.jpg
Views:	62
Size:	64.6 KB
ID:	11670   Click image for larger version

Name:	proj1.jpg
Views:	62
Size:	86.7 KB
ID:	11671   Click image for larger version

Name:	proj2.jpg
Views:	61
Size:	94.1 KB
ID:	11672   Click image for larger version

Name:	proj3.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	102.2 KB
ID:	11673   Click image for larger version

Name:	proj4.jpg
Views:	74
Size:	104.2 KB
ID:	11674  

Click image for larger version

Name:	proj5.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	83.5 KB
ID:	11675  
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 05:28 PM   #79
Guru
 
Aquabelle's Avatar
 
City: sydney
Country: australia
Vessel Name: Aquabelle
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander Flushdeck
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 538
Others contemplating a project like this might be interested to know that hi-quality manufacturer BEP produces a range of Battery Management Panels that greatly simplify battery switch mounting and cabling, incorporate buss bars and provide for circuit breakers for always-on/24 hour services: take a look here: 800-MS1 - Battery Management Panel

Where did you get to in deciding whether to power your davit from House or Start bank? I'd recommend from Start, as the short-burst/high current draw is more like a Start load than a deep-cycle load. If you haven't already, in the future you can use a battery type well suited to Start/Davit/Thruster loads such an Optima spiral-wound AGM. You already have the Balmar Duo-Charger (excellent choice) which can be programmed to suit the charge profile of this kind of battery. And yes, my own vessel is set up this way. Here's a pic of my charging system, which involves combining the output of two alternators with a Balmar CenterFielder and 2 x Balmar Regs; and charging Start & Genset batteries with Duo-chargers.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Full Installation View.jpg
Views:	87
Size:	124.4 KB
ID:	11711  
Aquabelle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 06:49 PM   #80
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
Sort of messy for my tastes
__________________

Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Fuel System Upgrade Project: Episode II Tom.B Power Systems 90 09-10-2015 07:46 PM
Winter Project II: Raw Water Plumbing Tom.B General Maintenance 63 02-28-2012 12:46 PM
Charging system rochepoint Electrical and Electronics & Navigation 8 09-30-2011 11:04 AM
The Fuel System Upgrade Project Tom.B Power Systems 46 02-12-2011 08:01 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012