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Old 02-21-2012, 09:20 PM   #41
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Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
psneeld wrote:*Tinned wire isn't a sham..it's useful for many of us that don't run and connect wire to perfection...it does outlast untinned wire to a much greater degree if moisture finds it's way into the wire....maybe outlast is incorrect*so outperform fits better.
*
Fair enough, but if we could PLEASE not dilute this thread with a discussion about tinned vs. non-tinned. There is another thread for that. This is a thread specifically for people to reference should they desire to try the same sort of project and for me to ask questions and get a reasonable discussion about it. I ma THE perpetual apprentice.


-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 10:23:14 PM
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:18 AM   #42
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

"Fair enough, but if we could PLEASE not dilute this thread with a discussion"


Nonsense , when a question HAS been answered most threads will expand ,

much to the delight of newbys , as it frequently covers or explains questions they did not know to ask!
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:52 AM   #43
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

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GonzoF1 wrote:psneeld wrote:*Tinned wire isn't a sham..it's useful for many of us that don't run and connect wire to perfection...it does outlast untinned wire to a much greater degree if moisture finds it's way into the wire....maybe outlast is incorrect*so outperform fits better.
*
Fair enough, but if we could PLEASE not dilute this thread with a discussion about tinned vs. non-tinned. There is another thread for that. This is a thread specifically for people to reference should they desire to try the same sort of project and for me to ask questions and get a reasonable discussion about it. I ma THE perpetual apprentice.



-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 10:23:14 PM

*Then don't dilute it with "personal" opinions about one of the main items of a charging system upgrade.

I never commented before about tinned versus not as they perform exactly the same in laboratory situations...and as Rick B said...if done correctly...there should be no difference.

Most boats and owners never come CLOSE to installing or keeping their system to laboratory conditions..."sham" I think not and you do a disservice to others attempting your upgrades into thinking any other way.

As far as sizing....ampacity is important but so are other factors...the most important is the required amps to spin your starter under the harshest conditions you expect to see.* That seems to be a glossed over requirement and just guessing then going up a size is a sure fire way to ruin an expensive starter..the same goes for max alternator output and where the end of the alt output wire is going as there are many options there.

*
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:41 AM   #44
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

I'll accept that criticism. Noted and thanks. :-D

TBH, I don't know I'll ever be in the hardest possible conditions. I suppose very cold is one, but we try not to boat in very cold. Out of curiosity, what other factors make up the hardest conditions? Moreover, not really knowing the full load of this particular starter (which is why I asked), educated guesses are about the only feasible method. Then err on the upside.

I suspect that I'm darn near already working the system I have to its limit. If you look at the pictures of the current state of wire and connections, it's pretty poor. And I would also suspect that this condition was a contributing factor to the starter failure I experienced 18 months ago. Nevertheless, while having the highest AWG possible is a good thing, there is also a breaking point where it's overkill and restricts flexibility, space, and cost.

I'm not arguing your position, nor trying to convince you of mine. I'm just being open about the processes that steer the decisions that *I* am making. It has been said (not by me though) that it's my project and I'll do with it as I please, but half the point of this thread is to help others see approaches to projects like this they may have missed. Case and point is the plumbing project thread. It eventually lead to me rethinking several aspects and resulted in a much better rig. That's why I am here and I HOPE that's why we are all here.

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Old 02-22-2012, 04:59 PM   #45
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Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Fair enough...so have you ascertained the max amps your starter can/is supposed to*draw?

Usually the engine manual or spec sheet says use a battery with an minimum cranking amps..that may help...


-- Edited by psneeld on Wednesday 22nd of February 2012 06:00:53 PM
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:57 AM   #46
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

"I never commented before about tinned versus not as they perform exactly the same in laboratory situations."

Most labs do not test after years/decades in a seawater environment.

"so have you ascertained the max amps your starter can/is supposed to draw?"

DC motors are measured in watts for the power draw.

If you want the best chance of a start figure the battery at 9 volts then figure the amps the start wire needs to handle with minimum .5 V drop.
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:40 AM   #47
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Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
FF wrote:
"I never commented before about tinned versus not as they perform exactly the same in laboratory situations."

Most labs do not test after years/decades in a seawater environment.

"so have you ascertained the max amps your starter can/is supposed to draw?"

DC motors are measured in watts for the power draw.

If you want the best chance of a start figure the battery at 9 volts then figure the amps the start wire needs to handle with minimum .5 V drop.
*I know..but whether you pick watts, amps or volts....I would hope anyone attempting to do their own wiring understands these 3 completely before even attempting a wiring upgrade.

On the other hand...in forums much theory/terminology is kept simple...like boatyard talk to keep the begginers interested and informed.

In one of my earlier posts I discussed wattage and "hershest conditions". Which again the person starting any boat project should investigate.* For starting it should include low voltage, cold engine but wire temp increase, bundling of wires if you do, number of wire breaks and potential for corrosion... Sure you can just always wire with 4/0...but for smaller diesels that might be a waste of money and difficult routing if you really don't need it.

*


-- Edited by psneeld on Thursday 23rd of February 2012 06:44:44 AM
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:17 AM   #48
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

but for smaller diesels that might be a waste of money and difficult routing if you really don't need it.

Until O dark 30 when the bilge pump wired to the engine batt gives up and you attempt to start with a "dead" batt.

Stuff happens , only few folks really "need" insurance after a disaster ,

but heavy wire even "if you really don't need it." is cheap insurance,.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:26 AM   #49
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
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but for smaller diesels that might be a waste of money and difficult routing if you really don't need it.

Until O dark 30 when the bilge pump wired to the engine batt gives up and you attempt to start with a "dead" batt.

Stuff happens , only few folks really "need" insurance after a disaster ,

but heavy wire even "if you really don't need it." is cheap insurance,.
*If always the doomsday scenario...maybe you should think long and hard about a starter battery WITHOUT bilge pumps wired (or anything else) and have it NEAR the starter...at some point another battery costs less than too much oversized wiriing.*

Even better...there's plenty of literature out there suggesting that even out 40 some footer would gain from going to 24 V systems to sart saving money due to the price increases in wire.

If the never enough mentality was in every aspect of boating...we wouldn't.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:57 AM   #50
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
psneeld wrote:
Fair enough...so have you ascertained the max amps your starter can/is supposed to*draw?

Usually the engine manual or spec sheet says use a battery with an minimum cranking amps..that may help...
What do you make of this. Manual states:

Max. current starter 1150 Amps (!!!)

Starter Cable Resistance 0.0017 Ohms

Ohms and total length not to exceed 12 feet of 61/0.036 (0.062in^2) or 20 feet of 61/0.044 (0.090in^2)
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:24 AM   #51
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Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Without more time to investigate...

here's a start...there's many more out there

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

If you want to wait...I'll be calculating/rewiring mine after fuel tank replacement..


-- Edited by psneeld on Friday 24th of February 2012 10:33:05 AM
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:55 PM   #52
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

I have been using the calculation more relevant to the application :-D

http://www.acbsphl.org/Tips_and_hints/ABYC_Wiring.htm (new window)
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:27 PM   #53
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

gives you the same/close enough*info..it was just the first one I came across
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Old 02-26-2012, 07:31 AM   #54
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

I brought the breadboard down to take a look at the fit and access.

Here it is:


elecmockup5 by GonzoF1, on Flickr
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:11 PM   #55
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Tom:* Your layout looks a little tight.* With all the 2/0 cables lugs and heat shrink you may want to spread things out a bit.* Move the positives and negatives further apart?*

Are you installing a battery monitor?* Remember that*all current must flow through the shunt to the negative battery terminal if you are.
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Old 02-27-2012, 07:51 AM   #56
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

I agree and am trying to figure out a way to make it all fit. This is just a sample mock-up, and if you have been watching all my other project threads, you know this config is by no means the final design. ;-) I definitely want to get the wire in (have not ordered it yet) to see what kind of radius it will have.

BTW... Look closely, there IS a shut for a Victron monitor mounted on there already. ;-)
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:13 AM   #57
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Now that you have that nice big crimping tool are you going to do anything else to the connections?

Or is the crimp good enough.

The reason for asking is. I used a chisel and hammer to crimp mine then soldered them also.

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Old 02-27-2012, 11:57 AM   #58
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

No... A proper crimp with the proper size lug, should crush the strands together into a nearly solid mass. Solder cannot penetrate it. Also, with adhesive heat shrink, you've got a good solid crimp. Solder get brittle.

Here is a good look:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-in-39439.html (new tab)

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Old 02-27-2012, 12:01 PM   #59
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Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
Old Stone wrote:
Alright Gonz, I have finally had it with you ! I have been resisiting and resisting, but can no longer hold off. The way you have approached both the plumbing and electric modifications on your vessel with the "panel" approach has finally embarrassed me to the point I now have yet another series of projects to do. YOU DOG ! Really admirable jobs you have been doing there, especially when it will come to servicing any part of the assemblies. But I stand hard with my position about you. YOU DOG !!!!!!!
*SORRY!!! Bess wants to go cruising in a few years and Skinny Dippin' needs to be ready. System centralization with easy access for repair, to me, is critical to solid, reliable performance and worry-free cruising. But that is just me.... YMMV :-D

BTW... Fuel system/polisher is the same way. :-D


-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Monday 27th of February 2012 01:05:54 PM
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:04 PM   #60
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
GonzoF1 wrote:
No... A proper crimp with the proper size lug, should crush the strands together into a nearly solid mass. Solder cannot penetrate it. Also, with adhesive heat shrink, you've got a good solid crimp. Solder get brittle.

Here is a good look:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-in-39439.html (new tab)

Tom-
*Thanks T, Looks great to me. I will try and rent the same brand when next I need one.

*I should just go do it anyway.

It is a whole lot better than what I did.

SD
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