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Old 01-23-2012, 05:30 AM   #21
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

You won't be sorry. It will be a much neater, and more correct install.

And more tools are always a good thing! My lady friend has decided that my work van is not really that as much as it is a giant toy box!* )
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:30 PM   #22
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Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

At the boat this weekend and got to the install the inverter.

Here is the space just under the stairs into the galley (we are galley-down) in a currently unused cabinet below the "pantry" locker. That door on the right is engine room access (I have NO clue why it's there) and the house batteries are literally about 18" to the right of that. So the run of the inverter wires will about 5-6' (max) each way.

invert1 by GonzoF1, on Flickr

Sorry I didn't take any pics of the actual install, but here is the finished placement.

invert2 by GonzoF1, on Flickr

Here is the idea. I found some keyboard tray runners in the house and adapted them to this project. Add a teak and away we go.

invert3 by GonzoF1, on Flickr

This allows it to slide out for easier service access!

invert4 by GonzoF1, on Flickr

Here is the final look. The door is missing here so that I can bring it home to install a vent (maybe with a battery-powered fan) for better air circulation. However, as low as that space is in the boat, it stays pretty cool in there. I'll eventually wire it to the breaker panel and remote mount the control panel, but for now, once it's hooked up, we'll just use a power strip with a long cord.

invert_5 by GonzoF1, on Flickr

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Sunday 5th of February 2012 03:33:14 PM
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Old 02-08-2012, 10:44 AM   #23
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

The install looks really good, particularly the slide out for eventual servicing.* However you've used some terminology that I'm not familiar with - what is "unused cabinet below the 'pantry' locker"?* I'm not familar with*unused space in the boating context.

*
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:08 PM   #24
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

I found a teak colored A/C vent at Home Depot and put it on the door. Looks good enough to me.


ventpanel by GonzoF1, on Flickr
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:09 AM   #25
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Nice Job! I love the pull out idea.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:18 AM   #26
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Gonzo

I have the same engine room access door under my galley steps. I have owned the boat 18 yrs. That door was opened once in the first year, just to figure out why it was there, but I failed, and like you, don't know why.
You do nice work!

Bob:
I think he meant to say "inaccessible". That makes more sense in the boating context.
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:19 AM   #27
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

I'm wondering if I should just latch it a bit more securely and mount the Fireboy extinguisher to the engine room side of it. I suppose that if I was going to service the holding tank, the door *could* come in handy.

As I sit here, I wonder if it would make getting batteries in and out of the engine room easier. You wouldn't be handing them down into the hatch from above to someone trying to maneuver themselves AND the batteries to the floor in that small space (see pics above), but could set them on the salon floor with the main hatch closed, then stand in the galley and move them to the galley floor, then open the door to set them on the engine room floor, then finally jump into the engine room only to have to lift them into place. Did that make sense?

That's interesting only because when I read your post, I was just sitting here doodling the design of a removable battery loading tray to possible use to ease in the new battery loading process.

Tom-
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:44 AM   #28
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Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Ya know those tools.

I used to buy them and found out I have a lot of tools I used once.

Now I rent them $10.00 bucks for the weekend return it and good to go.

If I need*It can I borrow yours?

All kidding aside you got the TSU (Trick Set Up)

Sort of looks like mine.

SD


-- Edited by skipperdude on Monday 20th of February 2012 10:46:11 AM
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:02 PM   #29
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Anyone know what gauge the starter wire should be? I've looked up all my other DC loads on the boat, but I am not completely sure what gauge the starter wire should be because I don't know what the starter creates as a load. Standard AC Delco starter and the round trip distance to the starter from the battery could be 20'-25' depending on if I decide to move the battery location. Google might know too. I'll ask them next :-)

(I was thinking 1/0 for this.)
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:17 AM   #30
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

There is no downside , besides co$t to 4/0.

A case where "bigger actually IS better".
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:38 AM   #31
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
GonzoF1 wrote:
Anyone know what gauge the starter wire should be? I've looked up all my other DC loads on the boat, but I am not completely sure what gauge the starter wire should be because I don't know what the starter creates as a load. Standard AC Delco starter and the round trip distance to the starter from the battery could be 20'-25' depending on if I decide to move the battery location. Google might know too. I'll ask them next :-)

(I was thinking 1/0 for this.)
*Without knowing started wattage it's just a guess.* If the owners manual suggests a minimum cranking amps then that may give a rough idea...I would stii increase wire size by one and make sure my connections are good (often the achilles heel of high amp situations).
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:01 AM   #32
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

My Albin with SP135 Lehmans came wired with 2/0. I assume you have a similiar engine? These starters can draw from 250 to 400 amps. 1/0 is only good for 242 amps. 2/0 is 280. 3/0 is 327, and 4/0 is 378. All these ampacity's are for inside and engine space. I wouldn't go less than 2/0 at all. Like FF said, bigger really is better.
My port engine had always turned over much slower than the stbd the first few years I had the boat. I just thought it had a weak starter. When I re-wired my 12 v cabling I discovered the round trip from battery to switch to starter and back to battery was 65ft! And the batteries sit right between the engines. With my re-wire (using the same cables as they were in excellent shape), using a remote battery switch and re-routing everything I got it down to about 15ft round trip. Now that engine spins just fine!
Use tht biggest wire, with the shortest run, and good clean, tight connections.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:18 AM   #33
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
GonzoF1 wrote:
Anyone know what gauge the starter wire should be? I've looked up all my other DC loads on the boat, but I am not completely sure what gauge the starter wire should be because I don't know what the starter creates as a load. Standard AC Delco starter and the round trip distance to the starter from the battery could be 20'-25' depending on if I decide to move the battery location. Google might know too. I'll ask them next :-)

(I was thinking 1/0 for this.)
You must take in to account the voltage drop and the length of a cable.* The longer a cable in relation to*a given current, the greater the voltage drop.* The only way to reduce the voltage drop is to*use larger diameter cable (lower risistance).** I'd go*with a minimum of 2/0 and move*the starting batteries*closer than 10'*to 12'.
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Old 02-21-2012, 08:29 AM   #34
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Good tips. Perhaps I'll bump it up to 2/0. (I'm also going to see what gauge the current welding wire is to compare.) The connections will be solid. See above for the $200 crimping tool I bought just for this application. :-D

**PROJECT UPDATES**

I took some quick measurements last week for the wire runs. I hope to order the wire next week.

Due to some space considerations, I have decided to replace the big 8-lug buss bars with smaller 4-lug bars as the primary tie-in points on the project board. I really don't want to have to crowd the components together. Some of these wires will be pretty thick and they'll need some room to bend and make the turns needed. I was not going to fill those buss bars anyway. Part of the reason for using 8-lugs was for future upgrades like wind or solar, and besides, stacking a wire lug or two is not against my religion. I'll cross the future upgrade bridge when I get there.

Finally, as discussed earlier (and in another thread), I opted to move the three HD battery switches into the salon for easier access in case of an emergency or runaway starter. The plan was to use a hole saw on the front edge of the port companionway stair and recess then onto the step for protection. However, in the car on Sunday, as I was describing it all to Bess, I had the idea to actually put them INSIDE the step storage locker. I plan to build a small panel in the step to recess mount them. The wires can still drop out of the bottom of the step to the batteries that are just inches below and save any unnecessarily long run, the switches can be far more protected, and access is no more difficult than lifting the step tread (not attached or latched).
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:47 AM   #35
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Ref the buss bars. ABYC allows 4 wires on a terminal. It's best to keep it to as few as possible but I routinely put 2 or 3 on a lug of these buss bars as long as the buss is rated for the amperage I'm doing.

And I assume you're going to order tinned marine cable.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:59 AM   #36
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
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Ref the buss bars. ABYC allows 4 wires on a terminal. It's best to keep it to as few as possible but I routinely put 2 or 3 on a lug of these buss bars as long as the buss is rated for the amperage I'm doing.

And I assume you're going to order tinned marine cable.
*Yep, I understand the restrictions on 4-to-a-lug. Thanks. It's unlikely I'll have more than one or two lugs with 2 wire lugs stacked. Maybe less. These buss bars are rated at 600A.

Unfortunately, after an exhaustive search, I was unable to find a retailer with both the size and priced by the foot selection of non-tinned wire. So it looks like I will be forced down the path the wire corporations want me to go. Nevertheless, I have found a retailer that has great prices and the knowledge to help me with my order.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:10 PM   #37
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Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
GonzoF1 wrote:Unfortunately, after an exhaustive search, I was unable to find a retailer with both the size and priced by the foot selection of non-tinned wire. So it looks like I will be forced down the path the wire corporations want me to go. Nevertheless, I have found a retailer that has great prices and the knowledge to help me with my order.
*Tom,

There is a scrap iron store in NB that sometime has all kind of wire.* Also have you been to Jarret Bays salvage store.* New left over parts from the yards that built boats there. Rust Ron's in Morehead City, more of the same.* You might be able to buy a couple of 20' sections of*00*wire.


-- Edited by JD on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 02:12:22 PM
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:28 PM   #38
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

I was unable to find a retailer with both the size and priced by the foot selection of non-tinned wire. (endquote)

Did you mean to say you couldn't fine a source for tinned wire? Where are you located?
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:07 PM   #39
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Without going into a lot of detail. Tinned wire on a boat is a sham. The AYBC does not require it, nor, with proper installation and connections, is it necessary. Please see the thread "Battery Wire" a few threads below this one. You'll understand. :-D
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:27 PM   #40
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RE: Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Quote:
GonzoF1 wrote:
Without going into a lot of detail. Tinned wire on a boat is a sham. The AYBC does not require it, nor, with proper installation and connections, is it necessary. Please see the thread "Battery Wire" a few threads below this one. You'll understand. :-D
*Tinned wire isn't a sham..it's useful for many of us that don't run and connect wire to perfection...it does outlast untinned wire to a much greater degree if moisture finds it's way into the wire....maybe outlast is incorrect*so outperform fits better.

*
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