Why are wire nuts disliked in boats.

[STB]

sdowney717,

If only we could somehow fire (certain) prior owners. (Or, spealing for myself) younger versions of ourselves.

Fortunately, bad paint is easy to see and can't burn a boat down

 

[bayview]

It seems that newer alternatives to wire nuts are being used in home building. So wire nuts may be on the way out.

 

[syjos]

Another TF thread that illustrates my signature line. Which I created especially for this forum.

I like it.

 

[syjos]

64 threads pertaining to wire nuts on boats........wow!

 

[psneeld]

Takes that long to dispell myths like they are illegal on boats.

 

[Comodave]

No, they are not illegal, just not proper or the best way to make a connection. Like Caltex says just because someone got away with it doesn’t make it right.

 

[psneeld]

If you read my posts, I don't think they are best either.


I just hate boating myths which get started here real fast and take years to dispell....if ever.


Not as bad as the real fearmongering that some do....but close.

 

[STB]

What I suspect isnt a myth is that overwhelmingly most surveyors will caution buyers about the potential quality of an electrical system where many twist on electrical caps are sighted.

 

[psneeld]

While that might be true...if you can show where the USCG doesn't find them unecessarily bad, you might be able to sway your insurance company...I know big deal just get rid of them....


But...for those that do care and get tagged by a survey....



My last insurance survey (last summer) was by me with checklist and photos).....there were about 4 things I didn't comply with and gave the insurance company my reasons why...which they accepted.


2 Biggie's were no .....fixed fire fighting system and only partial but safe propane setup.

 

[boatpoker]

No lawyer or expert here.....but....right in the CFRs (legal vs ABYC standard)


"The use of twist-on type wire nuts is permitted under the following conditions:"

46 CFR 183.340 and 46 CFR 111.60-17


§ 111.60-17 Connections and terminations.
(a) In general, connections and terminations to all conductors must retain the original electrical, mechanical, flame-retarding, and, where necessary, fire-resisting properties of the cable. All connecting devices must be suitable for copper stranded conductors.
(b) If twist-on type of connectors are used, the connections must be made within an enclosure and the insulated cap of the connector must be secured to prevent loosening due to vibration.
(c) Twist-on type of connectors may not be used for making joints in cables, facilitating a conductor splice, or extending the length of a circuit.

I think you'll find those sections do not apply or refer to pleasure craft electrical systems which I believe are covered under Title 33, sub-part 1.

 

[psneeld]

Absolutely correct.


The sections I posted refer to commercial passenger craft that are usually held to higher standards than recreational craft.


I don't think they discuss connectors in Title 33 except for battery connections....and that's for manufactures . ..not what is done by owners.


Again, I don't like wire nuts either, but even the USCG doesn't think they are all that bad if used under certain circumstances.

I just don't like expressions like " they have no place on a boat" or "they are illegal when not"....heck I can say the same about many skippers....

 

[SoWhat]

Who needs wire nuts when you have a roll of electrical tape? (PO's handiwork)

 

[Comodave]

Who needs wire nuts when you have a roll of electrical tape? (PO's handiwork)

Now that’s some great electrical work. Wonder what is hidden on your boat?

 

[sdowney717]

I thought the reg about the screw bearing direct on wire strands was very interesting.
Only for smaller than 14 gauge is it required to have a non rotating follower clamp, so 14 gauge and bigger, the screw can bear on the wire strands. I wonder how many know that.

(h) A connector or lug of the set
screw type must not be used with a
stranded conductor smaller than No. 14
AWG except if there is a nonrotating
follower that travels with the set screw
and makes pressure contact with the
conductor.

Lowes has some very nice electrical duplex outlets which use a non rotating clamp on the wire. I used them in the boat pretty much everywhere, you push wire into the back of the socket, and you tighten down the screw, and an internal pressure plate squeezes down on the copper strands. They also are the tamper proof style, so little kids cant stick paper clips etc, into the socket. They have plastic doors that cover internally the electrical contacts in the socket.

 

[diver dave]

NEC code cycle 2008 and later require TR receptacles for new construction in homes and certain other places. I suspect boats are outside the loop on this one.

 

[sdowney717]

NEC code cycle 2008 and later require TR receptacles for new construction in homes and certain other places. I suspect boats are outside the loop on this one.

One reason I like them is maybe water has a harder time splashing into the outlet. And maybe someones salty wet finger if it touched the front of the outlet would not complete the circuit and shock the person. You can get a shock from a gfci circuit if all the current is flowing from hot terminal, through your body part to the neutral with no stray current flowing to ground.
But it is also very unlikely.

I only bothered to buy them when I rewired the outlet circuits on the boat, I thought why not. At first I did not like them as they seemed more difficult to plug into, but I figured it out, they work ok.
.
If I was insulated from ground and held hot wire in left hand, neutral in right hand i would be electrocuted even with a gfci circuit, my body is the electrical load, just like any other. If no current could find a ground fault path, the gfci would not trip off the power.

 

[pattormey]

Here are the rules

The standards that apply to wiring your boat in the US are the ABYC standards and the Code of Federal Regulations Title 33 CFR Sections 183.401 - 183.460 The ABYC standards are voluntary and the CFR standards are mandatory.

Excerpt from a blog by Peter Kennedy in Nov 2018

Connections

Crimped connectors are allowed, the standards go into some detail about the pull force that the crimp must withstand and without getting bogged down in the details the intention is that the connections cannot under normal circumstances come undone. Twist-on or Wire nut connections are not permitted. When fork type connectors are used the forks must be the captive type which will not come undone if the screw comes loose. Metals used for connections cannot be Aluminum or unplated Steel.

Solder is permitted but cannot be the sole means of making the connection. This is because if the connection becomes very hot the solder might melt. Solder also tends to make the end of the wire into a solid wire as it wicks into the stranded conductors. The end of the wire then loses it flexibility and so is more prone to cracking induced by vibration.

 

[psneeld]

The standards that apply to wiring your boat in the US are the ABYC standards and the Code of Federal Regulations Title 33 CFR Sections 183.401 - 183.460 The ABYC standards are voluntary and the CFR standards are mandatory.

Excerpt from a blog by Peter Kennedy in Nov 2018

Connections

Crimped connectors are allowed, the standards go into some detail about the pull force that the crimp must withstand and without getting bogged down in the details the intention is that the connections cannot under normal circumstances come undone. Twist-on or Wire nut connections are not permitted. When fork type connectors are used the forks must be the captive type which will not come undone if the screw comes loose. Metals used for connections cannot be Aluminum or unplated Steel.

Solder is permitted but cannot be the sole means of making the connection. This is because if the connection becomes very hot the solder might melt. Solder also tends to make the end of the wire into a solid wire as it wicks into the stranded conductors. The end of the wire then loses it flexibility and so is more prone to cracking induced by vibration.

Who is Peter Kennedy? The "businessman" from PKYS?


After linking the ABYC suggestions and CFRs for builders, Mr. Kennedy would have to be someone pretty special to outdistance the references....and those that put them into law.

 

[jimisbell]

I get it.... But the reality is after working on many boats....I have seen failures in every other kind of connector (except maybe heat shrink crimps...probably because they were rare till recently)....and yet on those same boats the wire nuts connections were still OK.


ANY connector poorly done is an issue....and there are lots out there....not just wire nuts which some boaters probably have the most experience with.

I have not used wire nuts on my boat...yet....but on my cars, yes. The problems of moisture and vibrating loose are easily fixed by covering the connection with a waterproof, sealing, tape.

 

[psneeld]

The enclosed quote I have noted above about using captive forks or even rings for that matter is a joke. The issues with wire nuts abound...but aren't light years worse than many connections we have on boats anyway.


Either the machine screw loosens or it doesn't. If it does...I am not so sure I wouldn't rather just have it fall off in many cases than become loose enough to keep arcing or intermittent power....etc....causing all kinds of havoc.


If the machine screw can become loose...then can't it eventually just fall out anyway? Maybe the connection needs rethinking more so than just the connector.

 

[rgano]

If wire nuts had been used on the numerous connections under the hinged instrument console on my boat, I am quite sure their added bulk would prevent closing and latching the darned thing.

 

[jeffnick]

Others like to regurgitate rules or customary procedures. I like to share actual experiences.


I used wire nuts on my boat trailer whenever a fix or added item was in order, telling myself that their usage would only be temporary. I did fill each one with whatever goop I had on hand before twisting it on the wires - sometimes this was 5200, sometime silicone, sometimes latex bath caulk, sometimes glue. I towed thousands of miles (including a trip to Alaska) often dunking in salt water. They never gave me problem #1. Then one day on a wild hair I decided to rewire the whole trailer.


Here they are - not one failure or sign of water intrusion.

 

[motion30]

5 pages on why wire nuts are not a good idea on the boat...really? Amazing

 

[Comodave]

It is amazing...

Why not just use a proper crimp on connector and be done with it?

 

[syjos]

It is amazing...

Why not just use a proper crimp on connector and be done with it?

Exactly.

But there are people out there that like to be resourceful, clever, think out of the box and Macgyver things instead of using the easier, more accepted methods.

Using 5200, shrink tube and other methods to seal the wire nut opening is the dumbest thing I've seen.

So you open a $10-$14 tube of 5200 just to seal a few wire nut openings, put the cap on the 5200 and let the 5200 harden in the tube. Brillant!

And these geniuses are bragging about the practice!

And who has wire nuts on board instead of crimp connectors, crimped and shrink tube?


Quote: 5 pages on why wire nuts are not a good idea on the boat...really? Amazing

Truly amazing!

 

[psneeld]

Exactly.

But there are people out there that like to be resourceful, clever, think out of the box and Macgyver things instead of using the easier, more accepted methods.

Using 5200, shrink tube and other methods to seal the wire nut opening is the dumbest thing I've seen.

So you open a $10-$14 tube of 5200 just to seal a few wire nut openings, put the cap on the 5200 and let the 5200 harden in the tube. Brillant!

And these geniuses are bragging about the practice!

And who has wire nuts on board instead of crimp connectors, crimped and shrink tube?


Quote: 5 pages on why wire nuts are not a good idea on the boat...really? Amazing

Truly amazing!

Not really...not when you consider the real lack of evidence the "right way is so fail safe. And the USCG considers them OK for passenger vessels and not "MacGyvered".


And be careful who you are calling geniuses...it isn't hard to prove it here.


Better you just state your preference than point fingers.

 

[syjos]

Not really...not when you consider the real lack of evidence the "right way is so fail safe. And the USCG considers them OK for passenger vessels and not "MacGyvered".


And be careful who you are calling geniuses...it isn't hard to prove it here.


Better you just state your preference than point fingers.

psneeld,

Is this really you or did someone steal your identity?

 

[BruceK]

....So you open a $10-$14 tube of 5200 just to seal a few wire nut openings, put the cap on the 5200 and let the 5200 harden in the tube...

Side issue: if 5200 performs like Sika 291,put the capped opened part used tube in the freezer and it will remain usable. You might have to let it warm up a tad, but it will be usable. The process can even be repeated.

 

[Bigsfish]

So what did I learn from these five pages? I learned that I will continue using Anchor heat shrink connectors and sleep well at night and the extra ten dollars a year this will cost won’t bother me at all. Reading is good for mental masturbation.

 

[diver dave]

I want to hear about how solid wire will work well on boats. It should put an end to that pesky water migration and corrosion of all the tiny strands.