Why are wire nuts disliked in boats.

[boatpoker]

Perhaps splitting hairs, but there's nothing illegal about using wire nuts. There's no law prohibiting their use, there's no entity with enforcement powers. They *are* specifically prohibited in ABYC standards, but that's a standard or recommendation, not law. Lots of folks refer to ABYC compliance in relation to legality, it's a voluntary standard, not to be confused with building/electrical/plumbing *code* which is codified by law, and has entities with enforcement powers e.g. your local building code enforcement official. Officer of the court. No parallel agency exists in the boating world, other than USCG, but that's a different can of worms.

Not so in Canada. Excerpt from Transport Canada Construction Standards shown below.
Transport Canada and USCG are currently negotiating harmonization of their legal requirements and using ABYC in their entirety. Transport Canada already includes a number of the ABYC Standards in their construction Standards.

This was supposed to occur last July but we have a problem with Quebec and translations.

 

[Bacchus]

It continues to amaze me how many people would rather take short cuts or use less than "best practice" when doing any DIY repairs or installs either on the boat or at home.
Ignorance is one thing but with a little research these days it's not hard to find "best practices".
Many it seems know the recommended way but choose to defy those and instead do what they consider an equal or superior "DIY" method simply because its "good enough".
In an emergency you do anything to get going but after or if time permits...
WHY NOT USE BEST MATERIALS & PRACTICES???

Compass Marine How To covers best crimps, crimped and how to do it exceptionally well. Worth reading for the uneducated but likely won't help those "non-believers"

 

[Comodave]

I agree, why not just do it right? A heat shrink crimp is easy, fast and a good secure connection. Why mess with soldering and improper connectors? I just don’t get it. Why not just go with the ABYC recommendations? Easy and surveys will accept them.

 

[psneeld]

Boatpoker - do you know if the combining will include " non-regulated" recreational vessels?


In the US, I know the USCG has included some ABYC standards in the CFRs for manufacturing and USCG inspected....plus regulated uninspected....but recreational vessels past original manufacture have to worry about insurance but not legal matters.

 

[psneeld]

I too could get all worked up about wire nuts, but I wonder if those hat get worked up would pass a comprehensive "safety at sea" review....even if only ICW related stuff.


Priorities......

 

[O C Diver]

I do a lot of soldering of wire ends. Frequently have crimped then soldered. Sometimes have just twisted and soldered! But I tell you I dont have any failures with anything and I have owned this boat since 1998 and rewired a lot of it. I do not particularly like those plastic collars, I sometimes prefer to remove them, crimp , solder, then heat shrink. And nothing ever gets wet, that is odd, why do people talk about wet wiring?

There is only one possible place for wet wiring, and that is wiring and terminal strip blocks under the floor in the bilge areas. I dont know how your boat is made, but mine has 2x4 floor framing holding up the plywood floors and I put those terminal strip blocks on them and they are foot above bilge water. Its just not much of a problem even there and when it is a problem, I redo whatever it needs. I have 5 bilge pumps and pump switches and I just consider it normal maintenance.

I can understand hard spots created by soldering,, which can snap the wire apart due to being bent back and forth, but its rare, and ought to be as the entire length of wire allows for flex.

And the few wire nuts have been fine and easy enough to replace if I had too. The vibration and wire moving around cause boat moves, not sure I can agree with that. Typically wires are going into boxes, and the boxes have a clamp to keep the wire steady, so its not moving inside the box.
I honestly think the corrosion issue is true, and the big reason not to use them as is. The inside of wire nuts is steel and can rust. But if you put marine grease, then they cant rust. The other is supposedly a wire nut can cut the wire strands, but that idea is over rated and if you solder the ends, wont happen.

Of course you cant fight the tide of opinion.

Ok, here's your answer.
You are probably in the top 1% of marine wire nut installers. Your technique may be exemplary, corrosion protection on par with heat shrink, and a 100% safety record of no loosening, corrosion or failures. But, the standards aren't written for the top 1%. The standards are written based on a bad track record of failures and corrosion issues.

Ted

 

[boatpoker]

Boatpoker - do you know if the combining will include " non-regulated" recreational vessels?


In the US, I know the USCG has included some ABYC standards in the CFRs for manufacturing and USCG inspected....plus regulated uninspected....but recreational vessels past original manufacture have to worry about insurance but not legal matters.

The intent is to harmonize all recreational vessel standards and do away with existing legally required standards (TP1332 & CFR's).

This has been going on for some time. I can't find my latest CMAC bulletin but here is the original power point presentation from USCG and Transport Canada

 

[psneeld]

Thanks....still looks like new constrction unless I missed something....

 

[boatpoker]

Thanks....still looks like new constrction unless I missed something....

Correct, it will not be retroactive, however many ABYC Standards have been incorporated in TP1332 for years.

 

[diver dave]

... And nothing ever gets wet, that is odd, why do people talk about wet wiring?

There is only one possible place for wet wiring, and that is wiring and terminal strip blocks under the floor in the bilge areas. ...

because most of us remember that scene in Das Boot. Lots of wet wiring. `

I had "wet wiring" inside a IP65 rated Icom VHF radio. It was safely tucked inside an aluminum radio box with plexi sliders. Then, Florence hit... That sealed radio was half full of rain water.
Oh, and I had different vhf catch fire under the dash once. An ocean wave went over the windshield.

 

[Comodave]

I still don’t see the need or possible benefits of wire nuts.

 

[Mako]

I haven’t gone through the whole thread, but here’s my input: if you really wish to use wire nuts then goto Home Depot and get the ones designed for burial in use of sprinkler systems. They have silicon glue encapsulated into them, which starts curing once you install them. They work reliably at my house for sure

 

[syjos]

It never ceases to amaze me that boat owners will MacGyber a fix instead of doing it the accepted way, which ends up taking less time if you have the proper tools and supplies on hand.

Too many boaters take no pride in the quality or correctness of their work.

Sad.

 

[Comodave]

It never ceases to amaze me that boat owners will MacGyber a fix instead of doing it the accepted way, which ends up taking less time if you have the proper tools and supplies on hand.

Too many boaters take no pride in the quality or correctness of their work.

Sad.

Absolutely. Then give a reason why it is just as good...

 

[Maerin]

It never ceases to amaze me that boat owners will MacGyber a fix instead of doing it the accepted way, which ends up taking less time if you have the proper tools and supplies on hand.

Too many boaters take no pride in the quality or correctness of their work.

Sad.

^^^^ So true!!


But-- i's not just limited to boaters!

 

[BruceK]

Could be useful, but maybe only short term. Injecting sealant into the much derided joiner would prevent moisture ingress, and probably movement too. But,short term could become long term.

 

[wkearney99]

It's the classic situation, if you don't have time/money to do it right the first time, will you have the time/money to do it all over again?

One hopes most half-assed solutions are only because someone didn't know better, not just because they've got some misplaced sense of stingy-ness. Sadly, however, most never get around to accepting there are better ways, and correct past bad work.

 

[psneeld]

No lawyer or expert here.....but....right in the CFRs (legal vs ABYC standard)


"The use of twist-on type wire nuts is permitted under the following conditions:"

46 CFR 183.340 and 46 CFR 111.60-17


§ 111.60-17 Connections and terminations.
(a) In general, connections and terminations to all conductors must retain the original electrical, mechanical, flame-retarding, and, where necessary, fire-resisting properties of the cable. All connecting devices must be suitable for copper stranded conductors.
(b) If twist-on type of connectors are used, the connections must be made within an enclosure and the insulated cap of the connector must be secured to prevent loosening due to vibration.
(c) Twist-on type of connectors may not be used for making joints in cables, facilitating a conductor splice, or extending the length of a circuit.

 

[sdowney717]

No lawyer or expert here.....but....right in the CFRs (legal vs ABYC standard)


"The use of twist-on type wire nuts is permitted under the following conditions:"

46 CFR 183.340 and 46 CFR 111.60-17


§ 111.60-17 Connections and terminations.
(a) In general, connections and terminations to all conductors must retain the original electrical, mechanical, flame-retarding, and, where necessary, fire-resisting properties of the cable. All connecting devices must be suitable for copper stranded conductors.
(b) If twist-on type of connectors are used, the connections must be made within an enclosure and the insulated cap of the connector must be secured to prevent loosening due to vibration.
(c) Twist-on type of connectors may not be used for making joints in cables, facilitating a conductor splice, or extending the length of a circuit.

This I noticed, you can use for larger than #14 stranded wire lug connectors where the set screw bears directly on the wire.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2011-title46-vol7/pdf/CFR-2011-title46-vol7-sec183-340.pdf

(h) A connector or lug of the set
screw type must not be used with a
stranded conductor smaller than No. 14
AWG except if there is a nonrotating
follower that travels with the set screw
and makes pressure contact with the
conductor.

And solder splices are ok

(g) Each connection to a conductor or
terminal part of a conductor must be
made within an enclosure and have either:
(1) A pressure type connector on each
conductor;
(2) A solder lug on each conductor;
(3) A splice made with a pressure
type connector to a flexible lead or
conductor; or
(4) A splice that is soldered, brazed,
or welded to a flexible lead or conductor.

 

[psneeld]

USCG laws for commercial vessels are not as particular as ABYC.


ABYC makes no diffetentiation between a 2000 hp offshore go fast and my 6 knot ICW cruiser. ABYC standards seem to be written for worst case scenarios lasTed (OCDiver) pointed out.


Knowing what is best and what is good enough drives our lives every day in many ways.


I don't use wire nuts for those that are liking the finger pointing.


Most here are not the best boat handlers, doesn't keep them tied to the dock like a wire nut will...

 

[STB]

No lawyer here, to be sure...

But one read of those code sections is that twist on connectors and solder joints are permitted within enclosures, e.g. within a box of a radio or HVAC unit or junction box, but not for wiring outside of such enclosures, e.g. extensions, splices, from unenclosed switches, etc. I don't think that is a surprise.

I also dont think it counts as using a twist on wiring connector when it isn't used as a twist on, but instead as some type of taped on solder cap. Such improvised applications are certainly without formal testing, support, or practice in the trade.

W.r.t. the code, my read would be that such solder-and-cap connections seem to be permissible if, and only if, they met the other requirements for solder connections.

I also have to believe that ABYC exists to offer guidance not inconsistent with CFR -- but to specifically offer best practice guidance for recreational vessels vs other applications.

So, personally, I do my best to comply in new work and bring old work into compliance over time.

I, personally, am in the camp that no one person knows as much as many, if only for lacking the collective experience. So, personally, I follow guidance that I know has been produced by many good folks focused on the issues and try my best to understand it -- to learn what they know that I don't and to understand what they do and I don't.

Sometimes the guidance may seem silly to me, but then I remind myself that consistency has value by itself, e.g. everyone knows it is safe if done X way, sonwe all do it that way -- and of all the times in life I've learned things without expecting it.

 

[FF]

Wire nuts do have a purpose on board.

Trouble shooting.

Chasing old PO wiring can be a true PIA , so at times a temporary hookup is required to see if everything is finally right.

They will last for a test ride or operation check.

Sure they leave when the toolbox is closed , and the cure is finalized.


But there very useful for a while.

 

[sdowney717]

No lawyer here, to be sure...

But one read of those code sections is that twist on connectors and solder joints are permitted within enclosures, e.g. within a box of a radio or HVAC unit or junction box, but not for wiring outside of such enclosures, e.g. extensions, splices, from unenclosed switches, etc. I don't think that is a surprise.

I also dont think it counts as using a twist on wiring connector when it isn't used as a twist on, but instead as some type of taped on solder cap. Such improvised applications are certainly without formal testing, support, or practice in the trade.

W.r.t. the code, my read would be that such solder-and-cap connections seem to be permissible if, and only if, they met the other requirements for solder connections.

I also have to believe that ABYC exists to offer guidance not inconsistent with CFR -- but to specifically offer best practice guidance for recreational vessels vs other applications.

So, personally, I do my best to comply in new work and bring old work into compliance over time.

I, personally, am in the camp that no one person knows as much as many, if only for lacking the collective experience. So, personally, I follow guidance that I know has been produced by many good folks focused on the issues and try my best to understand it -- to learn what they know that I don't and to understand what they do and I don't.

Sometimes the guidance may seem silly to me, but then I remind myself that consistency has value by itself, e.g. everyone knows it is safe if done X way, sonwe all do it that way -- and of all the times in life I've learned things without expecting it.

Even on land in homes, wires are not permitted to be spliced together - extended outside of boxes. All wire nuts must be inside a connection box, and the wires have to be secured to the box or within 6 inches of the box so they dont pull out from the box.

Soldered wires dont collapse when a twist on connector is screwed on. Its just as secure if the right size.

 

[STB]

sdowney717,

Agreed about land.

My experience with caps over soldered wire is different than yours.

My experience is that when applying caps over untwisted wire, the wire twists tightly as the cap is turned and the coil in the cap gets a good "bite" into wire.

When I've seen caps over solder, the soldered wire was more solid and didn't mold as cooperative with the coil, causing the coil to displace more and "bite" less. In the cases I've seen, they came loose and than tape or heat shrink was holding the cap on or, when I took them off, they came off more easily.

Just my own personal observation from old work done by unknown folks. Others' mileage may vary.

 

[JDCAVE]

Not so in Canada. Excerpt from Transport Canada Construction Standards shown below.
Transport Canada and USCG are currently negotiating harmonization of their legal requirements and using ABYC in their entirety. Transport Canada already includes a number of the ABYC Standards in their construction Standards.

This was supposed to occur last July but we have a problem with Quebec and translations.

Thanks for that BP. That was what I was told as well, but this is the first time I’ve seen a reference to the regulation. Is this regulation specific for recreational vessels or also commercial vessels?

Jim

 

[sdowney717]

sdowney717,

Agreed about land.

My experience with caps over soldered wire is different than yours.

My experience is that when applying caps over untwisted wire, the wire twists tightly as the cap is turned and the coil in the cap gets a good "bite" into wire.

When I've seen caps over solder, the soldered wire was more solid and didn't mold as cooperative with the coil, causing the coil to displace more and "bite" less. In the cases I've seen, they came loose and than tape or heat shrink was holding the cap on or, when I took them off, they came off more easily.

Just my own personal observation from old work done by unknown folks. Others' mileage may vary.

Thats interesting because, solder is softer than copper, and a wire nut bites into copper, so it also logically bites into solder. They have not just fallen off any wire I put them onto. Maybe your using the wrong size wire nut?

I agree they are not as good as soldering or crimping and then heat shrinking.
I prefer to use plain copper crimp sleeves versus the colored plastic ones. Slide both wires side by side, twisted, soldered or not with a copper crimp over top, then squeeze it down, then heat shrink. I notice the plastic ones, the wire strands flex and break over long period of time, have not noticed that with copper crimps and heat shrinking, I think it proved better support, less flexing and twisting. Plus how many times have we seen green corroding copper strands exposed or broken loose in one of the plastic barrel crimps. Maybe I have seen more than most, at our old marina I have seen lots of older boats crushed and gone to the dumpster and most had lousy looking wiring like that.

 

[STB]

sdowney717,

I don't know exactly what caused the failure because I didn't put in the wire nuts -- just took them out. But, I've run into it in a few boats. The problem didn't seemed to be the hardness of the solder, as a metal, just the fact that it was a relatively large solid blob vs the wire by itself, and also that it also sometimes seemed to hold the wire in a shape different than the nut, generating extraordinary and possibly damaging stress on or distortion of the coil.

Untinned copper wire with corrosion is also a common conflating factor.

I use wire nuts on land with no problem -- but don't solder, and that is a very different environment.

 

[STB]

sdowney717,

In all fairness, I've seen the occasional crimp connection pull apart or loose. Sometimes from a low quality connector, sometimes from a bad crimp, and sometimes from corrosion.

But...the failure rate I've observed with wire nuts, soldered or otherwise, has been much higherbthan crimps.

Again...just my own observation.

 

[caltexflanc]

Another TF thread that illustrates my signature line. Which I created especially for this forum.

 

[sdowney717]

sdowney717,

I don't know exactly what caused the failure because I didn't put in the wire nuts -- just took them out. But, I've run into it in a few boats. The problem didn't seemed to be the hardness of the solder, as a metal, just the fact that it was a relatively large solid blob vs the wire by itself, and also that it also sometimes seemed to hold the wire in a shape different than the nut, generating extraordinary and possibly damaging stress on or distortion of the coil.

Untinned copper wire with corrosion is also a common conflating factor.

I use wire nuts on land with no problem -- but don't solder, and that is a very different environment.

Not just any person can solder, any old fool can do it badly. Big blobs of solder, guy would be let go doing such poor work you would hope so. Its like some guy paints his house and creates huge ugly runs in the paint and it surface cracks and peels then the guy calls it good to go, so then we condemn all paint as bad.