Time for new house bank

[john61ct]

I spoke with the distributer who measured a battery in stock. Looks like they will fit.

Great! but,
I would take two trays in and see what happens butting them full, 2/3 of an inch ain't nuthin' and you want to be sure before antone carries them on board.

 

[Rossland]

If you change battery types, say from wet to AGM, you will also have to adjust the voltage output of your bat charger, and alternator.

 

[dhays]

Take a look at the Lifeline GP-L16T batteries...increase AH in same footprint if you have vertical space. They are AGM and lighter than 8D to move around.

Very true Henry. The Lifeline are also a LOT more expensive.

However, your point is a good one. If I stayed with the US Batteries, their L16 AGM claim 390 Ah vs the Group 902 which they claim are 312 Ah. A comparison.
6 x USAGML16, $347 each, $2,082 for 1170Ah total or 585 usable. 726 lbs
8 x USAGM305, $286 each, $2,288 for 1248Ah total or 624 usable. 840 lbs

If I could fit the L16s I think I would save the $200 and 110 lbs in exchange for 40Ah less usable power.

BTW, that would be 74 lbs less than my current batteries weigh and give me more usable Ah than when the boat was new.

 

[angus99]

Great looking Batt Bank!

How big is your charger aboard boat? When anchored how long to run gen set for recharge when batt power has been considerably depleted? Do you have solar charger hooked into batt bank; and, if so what size and how well charged does that usually keep those big batts?

Art, we have a Magnum 2812 inverter/charger with 125-amp charging capacity. No solar yet, but someone I know with solar and a similar bank/charging setup on a Defever 44+5 seldom starts his genset. We haven't charged at anchor yet, but I hope we can minimize genset run time with the two larger (100-amp) alts I installed on the Lehmans. I'm sure it will be a learning experience, but I'm hoping the longer we run, the less time we'll need the Westerbeke.

Angus, how did you end up securing your bank of batteries. I recall that the photos a you took were before you had that secured.

Dave, I built a grid to immobilize the base of the batts using oak dividers glued and screwed on about 3-inch centers.



I used strong straps with stainless turnbuckles that are through-bolted to the shelf to exert downward pressure.



Although not required with AGMs, I plan to install a light cover with vents for any minimal off-gassing. This would be protection (in addition to the terminal covers) against something accidentally shorting across the terminals.

(BTW, I might have gone with the taller L16s if I hadn't needed the headroom for fuses, switches, etc.)

 

[ranger58sb]

Another issue is that AGMs are more sensitive to charging volts being well-regulated, straight LA is likely to just be more robust, but if you do go quality AGM, be sure to match it up with your existing infrastructure, or v/v

For example, Odyssey specs .4C in charging current as the **minimum** rate for max longevity.

I suspect this a reasonably loose recommendation. When we started switching to AGMs, the Odyssey guy told me our existing 40A charger would work OK. That for two 300-Ah and one 68-Ah banks. And sure enough, while not optimum, the earliest 300-Ah bank of Odysseys is only now being replaced.

I suspect because of our usage pattern, usually not away from shorepower for more than a week at a time.

Even with our new set-up, once fully implemented, we'll only be reaching .13C on one main bank (Odyssey), and .16C on the other (Lifeline, once installed). Even though that doesn't take perfect advantage of the higher AGM charge acceptance rate, I'm not expecting any huge problem with that...

Thanks John, I think the first thing I am going to do, before I change the batteries I have, is to combine the house and thruster banks into one large one. While not ideal, that may give me some added capacity, enough to get my wife's CPAP through the night. That will buy me a little time.

I'd bet almost any bank you can put together, even a single G27 or G31 or whatever -- when healthy -- should run the CPAP overnight. Combining all that into a larger bank might be useful anyway, but I don't think that CPAP machine is drawing enough to make it mandatory. More likely maybe just a sign that your existing batteries have been toast for a while.

-Chris

 

[john61ct]

I suspect this a reasonably loose recommendation. When we started switching to AGMs, the Odyssey guy told me our existing 40A charger would work OK. That for two 300-Ah and one 68-Ah banks. And sure enough, while not optimum, the earliest 300-Ah bank of Odysseys is only now being replaced.

Yes it is for getting "even longer" lifespan from an expensive and excellent product.

AGM manufacturers have only realized the benefits of high-current charging in recent years.

Bottom line consensus now is "no such thing as too high" as far as lead banks are concerned.

But fire risk increases with wiring etc, so they still CYA with a max rate.

 

[Art]

Yes it is for getting "even longer" lifespan from an expensive and excellent product.

AGM manufacturers have only realized the benefits of high-current charging in recent years.

Bottom line consensus now is "no such thing as too high" as far as lead banks are concerned.

But fire risk increases with wiring etc, so they still CYA with a max rate.

"Bottom line consensus now is "no such thing as too high" as far as lead banks are concerned".

That include wet cell??

 

[FF]

"I built a grid to immobilize the base of the batts using oak dividers glued and screwed on about 3-inch centers."

Looks great , but will a single strap take care of a knockdown?

 

[twistedtree]

Angus99, thats' a nice looking set up. From the picture I would have guessed those are L16s, but you say they are not? What make and model are they? Looks like US Battery? And they are AGMs?

 

[dhays]

I'd bet almost any bank you can put together, even a single G27 or G31 or whatever -- when healthy -- should run the CPAP overnight. Combining all that into a larger bank might be useful anyway, but I don't think that CPAP machine is drawing enough to make it mandatory. More likely maybe just a sign that your existing batteries have been toast for a while.

-Chris

You are likely correct. One of the things that would help would be if I ran a 12v outlet to the forward cabin and got a 12v plug for her CPAP. That would save from the loss due to inverting from 12v to 120V AC.

 

[dhays]

Dave, I built a grid to immobilize the base of the batts using oak dividers glued and screwed on about 3-inch centers.

I used strong straps with stainless turnbuckles that are through-bolted to the shelf to exert downward pressure.

Although not required with AGMs, I plan to install a light cover with vents for any minimal off-gassing. This would be protection (in addition to the terminal covers) against something accidentally shorting across the terminals.

(BTW, I might have gone with the taller L16s if I hadn't needed the headroom for fuses, switches, etc.)

Angus, Thanks for the added photos. Very nice job on your layout. If I end up using the 902 or L16 batteries I think I may take the lazy way out and purchase battery boxes. More expensive by far but quicker for me. I also want a solid top over the batteries to keep items from accidentally falling on the terminals. I have to use the lazarrette for storage and accidents can happen. I need to check my head room. There are some good boxes designed for L16 batteries and the 902 are the same footprint just shorter. The real question is if I have enough headroom for the taller boxes. I know the box style that I like, but can't find them for the shorter 902s.

 

[Art]

Angus, Thanks for the added photos. Very nice job on your layout. If I end up using the 902 or L16 batteries I think I may take the lazy way out and purchase battery boxes. More expensive by far but quicker for me. I also want a solid top over the batteries to keep items from accidentally falling on the terminals. I have to use the lazarrette for storage and accidents can happen. I need to check my head room. There are some good boxes designed for L16 batteries and the 902 are the same footprint just shorter. The real question is if I have enough headroom for the taller boxes. I know the box style that I like, but can't find them for the shorter 902s.

Always wise to have the terminals themselves covered with red and black plastic terminal covers and have a top-cover over the whole set up. Instead if a solid top I use 1/8" thick shower-pan-base rubber material. Cuts to shape easily, relatively inexpensive at HD, totally electric current resistant and waterproof. Another good thing about it is due to light weight and flexibility it is so very easy to take off, place folded out of the way and put back on.

Happy Battery Daze! - Art

 

[dhays]

Always wise to have the terminals themselves covered with red and black plastic terminal covers and have a top-cover over the whole set up. Instead if a solid top I use 1/8" thick shower-pan-base rubber material. Cuts to shape easily, relatively inexpensive at HD, totally electric current resistant and waterproof. Another good thing about it is due to light weight and flexibility it is so very easy to take off, place folded out of the way and put back on.

Happy Battery Daze! - Art

That is a good idea Art, thanks. I will get some measurements and see what I'm looking at. If I have room for the L16s I might do that with simple battery trays and see about that pad idea.

Currently, I have nice fiberglass boxes with lids. I am able to stack two shallow plastic containers over the top for parts storage such as filters, belts etc... With the taller battery boxes if I could fit one of those containers on top it would be nice. If not, your pad idea is cheaper and easy.

 

[dhays]

Weight distribution

Here is another consideration...

Currently there are 3 8Ds on the starboard side of the space and 2 8Ds on the port side. If I replace those with 902 or L16 batteries in one bank, I would like to put them all together, likely on the starboard side. If I did the L16s, that would be 726lbs sitting where 480 lbs is now and removing 320 lbs from the port side. My guess is that will cause a list to starboard. I can compensate for that with fuel and water loads when they are not completely full.

I could always separate some of the batteries in the bank but electrically I think that would be a bad idea having some of the parallel links be much longer than others.

 

[JDCAVE]

Dave: my views on housebank requirements have changed greatly since we got solar panels and I think your views will change too. Personally, I'd think about installing solar panels first, as you might find you will get a year or two more out of your current bank if you can continually top them up with solar. Also, I'm not so sure I'd combine the thruster bank with the house bank. Make sure that your thruster bank and thruster ARE NOT 24 volt, if you decide to go that route. My thruster is 24 volt and the batteries are located right next to the thruster. There is a complicated relay for for running my thruster and 24 volt, although the charging setup is 12 volt (including the Balmar Duo Charge).

 

[DavidM]

Sorry to come to this thread late.

Although i am a big fan of GC2s and a bigger fan of L16s, I think in this situation I would just replace the 8Ds with quality AGM 8Ds if you have the labor to move them.

With a genset you don't really need huge capacity. AGMs work almost as well as GC2s in deep cycle service. They avoid the watering issue (which isn't much BTW, maybe I add water twice each year and check four times.). And all of the wiring and connections are in place.

David

 

[dhays]

Angus99, thats' a nice looking set up. From the picture I would have guessed those are L16s, but you say they are not? What make and model are they? Looks like US Battery? And they are AGMs?

They are a US battery Group 902 (USAGM305). Same foot print as an L16 but shorter. 312 Ah instead of the 390Ah L16s.
http://tinyurl.com/n5486mr

 

[FlyWright]

... AGMs work almost as well as GC2s in deep cycle service. They avoid the watering issue (which isn't much BTW, maybe I add water twice each year and check four times.). And all of the wiring and connections are in place.

David

That's been my experience, too. I use WaterMiser battery caps which seem to help reduce the watering requirements.

 

[angus99]

Angus99, thats' a nice looking set up. From the picture I would have guessed those are L16s, but you say they are not? What make and model are they? Looks like US Battery? And they are AGMs?

Angus, Thanks for the added photos. Very nice job on your layout. If I end up using the 902 or L16 batteries I think I may take the lazy way out and purchase battery boxes. More expensive by far but quicker for me. I also want a solid top over the batteries to keep items from accidentally falling on the terminals. I have to use the lazarrette for storage and accidents can happen. I need to check my head room. There are some good boxes designed for L16 batteries and the 902 are the same footprint just shorter. The real question is if I have enough headroom for the taller boxes. I know the box style that I like, but can't find them for the shorter 902s.

They are a US battery Group 902 (USAGM305). Same foot print as an L16 but shorter. 312 Ah instead of the 390Ah L16s.
http://tinyurl.com/n5486mr

Thanks, guys. Dave answered your questions correctly, Twistedtree. The 305s (902s) are used for floor-polishers and sweepers. A perfect fit for me since I needed the space above them for other components.

Dave, I couldn't find suitable boxes for the 305s either. I thought about cutting down some L16 boxes to fit, but their footprint was too large for the platform I have. When a friend showed me his layout, I decided on the open array (with terminal boots and a top). I do like the added ventilation and ease of maintenance, but if I'd found some suitable boxes, I might have gone with them.

 

[john61ct]

That include wet cell??

Yes, even more so, more robust less fussy than AGM.

Lead's resistance means the bank controls the amps accepted, as long as the charge source keeps voltage in spec, all is well.

 

[GoneFarrell]

Dave: my views on housebank requirements have changed greatly since we got solar panels and I think your views will change too. Personally, I'd think about installing solar panels first, as you might find you will get a year or two more out of your current bank if you can continually top them up with solar.

JD, thanks for that perspective, as my 2x2 GC2 house bank may be about due for replacement. If I tell myself I'm going to put up a couple flex panels anyway, why not do that first. More fun than hoiking 67# batteries around for sure.

 

[dhays]

Dave: my views on housebank requirements have changed greatly since we got solar panels and I think your views will change too. Personally, I'd think about installing solar panels first, as you might find you will get a year or two more out of your current bank if you can continually top them up with solar. Also, I'm not so sure I'd combine the thruster bank with the house bank. Make sure that your thruster bank and thruster ARE NOT 24 volt, if you decide to go that route. My thruster is 24 volt and the batteries are located right next to the thruster. There is a complicated relay for for running my thruster and 24 volt, although the charging setup is 12 volt (including the Balmar Duo Charge).

Thanks for that. I will double check on the thrusters but I think they are 12V.

Solar is something that I think I want to do at some point, but so far my use doesn't really justify it. I simply don't have enough time off to spend as long as I want on the boat. I could fit a couple of panels on the PH roof relatively easily. What I would be looking for is the panels to help with the 80-100% SOC during the summer months. I have no dreams of being completely energy independent but simply to help top off the batteries during the day. That is a project that I am not ready to tackle at this point. I have too much to learn, and not enough free time. If I am honest, I'm also a little intimidated about figuring it all out and the job of running the wire. Dan on Rogue has a boat similar to mine and he has had great results with a couple panels on his PH roof.

 

[Art]

Yes, even more so, more robust less fussy than AGM.

Lead's resistance means the bank controls the amps accepted, as long as the charge source keeps voltage in spec, all is well.

Thanks for reply. Guess that means I could change my 40 or 60 amp Professional Mariner charger [I'm not sure of it amperage - it's OEM from 1977 when boat was built] with a new 100 amp charger to charge my house bank of 4 G31, deep cycle, wet set batts??

I only need a simple single stage charger as my batteries are not having charger on unless I'm aboard. But I guess... to be smart about it... I should get a multi stage charger. However, doing that simply contradicts my rule of KISS on a pleasure boat!

 

[CPseudonym]

Dave even one smallish panel is beneficial as panel owners as a group overall tend to enjoy happy batteries. But it represents mission creep which I find to be the enemy of any successful project.

 

[john61ct]

Thanks for reply. Guess that means I could change my 40 or 60 amp Professional Mariner charger [I'm not sure of it amperage - it's OEM from 1977 when boat was built] with a new 100 amp charger to charge my house bank of 4 G31, deep cycle, wet set batts??

I only need a simple single stage charger as my batteries are not having charger on unless I'm aboard. But I guess... to be smart about it... I should get a multi stage charger. However, doing that simply contradicts my rule of KISS on a pleasure boat!

For sure, proper charger helps longevity.

40 years, wow!

 

[dhays]

Dave even one smallish panel is beneficial as panel owners as a group overall tend to enjoy happy batteries. But it represents mission creep which I find to be the enemy of any successful project.

So true! That is why I have always had it in my mind to put up two panels, since they should fit easily, and try to do it as simply as possible. Also try to do it inexpensively since it would be to supplement the engine alt and generator.

 

[JDCAVE]

Dave: we have 435 watts of panels. I wanted 500 but I could not fit 500 watts between the name plates and the forestry for the mast. I took some angle aluminum, and pre-drilled it to make 2" aluminum brackets which bolted to the panels and then I glued the brackets with 4200 to the roof--no screw holes. Cabled these to breakers on the fly bridge and ran cable to the MPPT in the engine room to a breaker then to the house bank. It's basically that straightforward. Even a biologist could do it and I'm certain that an ophthalmologist could do it as well, 'cause I'm told they're smarter.

The only mistake I made with my solar setup was not doing it 2 years earlier.

 

[dhays]

I like the idea of gluing the brackets to the roof. That may be another winter project.

 

[Art]

For sure, proper charger helps longevity.

40 years, wow!

Tollycraft built em tough! Our "Tolly Baby" is generally ready for the next 40!!

 

[ranger58sb]

Thanks for reply. Guess that means I could change my 40 or 60 amp Professional Mariner charger [I'm not sure of it amperage - it's OEM from 1977 when boat was built] with a new 100 amp charger to charge my house bank of 4 G31, deep cycle, wet set batts??

I only need a simple single stage charger as my batteries are not having charger on unless I'm aboard. But I guess... to be smart about it... I should get a multi stage charger. However, doing that simply contradicts my rule of KISS on a pleasure boat!

What if...

You developed a leak of some sort that required constant bilge pump... for several days maybe... while you were away from the boat?

-Chris