Thinking about removing inverter
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twistedtree
Guru
Xantrex is the company people dump on the most, and largely with good reason. They should be an MBA case study of how an acquiring company can ruin a good product line, and how a company can become know for their worst product and behavior, even though they have had some good products along the way.
Here's their history, as best I can remember as a customer along the way...
First there was Heart Interface. I think they were one of the first inverter companies with products that were widely used in vehicles and boats. My first off-grid inverter was a Freedom 10, 1kw MSW inverter/charger. These were very solid products.
Xantrex bought Heart Interface and continued selling the Freedom product line for a long time - perhaps even still today.
Trace was another early company and they made a full line of inverters, including the first widely used pure sine wave inverter, the SW series. These were very robust systems and widely used in marine, vehicles, and off-grid applications. Lots are still in service today. I ran a house on one for several years, and still have the retired SW4024 in my shop waiting to be reused somewhere else.
Xantrex bought Trace, and continued to sell the SW, but there was some sort of a spat between Xantrex and the core Trace team, and the Trace guys all left. Under Xantrex's ownership, the UL standard for grid-tied anti-islanding came into force, and the SW didn't comply, so Trace had to make some firmware modifications. They obtained UL compliance, but screwed up a bunch of other things at the same time. This was the first indication that Xantrex didn't understand the product they were selling and trying to maintain. Then they came out with the SW+ series, and it was basically a belly flop.
In parallel, I think under new management, Xantrex went on an acquisition binge and bought up pretty much every consumer inverter company out there. Names like ProSine come to mind, and I think (but am not sure) this was the inverter that caused everyone so much trouble. It was sine wave, 1-2kw, small, and inexpensive. I had one of these in a boat and it was a POS.
At this point, Xantrex seemed to be a company with a corner on the market, a ton of products, but nobody home in engineering. So when anything went wrong, all they could do was replace products, deny any problems, and try to make customers go away, which they did.
Again in parallel, let's go back to Trace and the exodus of that team from Xantrex. They left and formed Outback, names because their office was out behind the Xantrex office. And they produced the FX line of sine wave inverters. I recently learned from an industry insider that "FX" stands for "Fu$@ck Xantrex". Outback continues to have outstanding products, though they are products designed by engineers, for engineers, i.e. very complex and difficult to understand. But once set up, they just keep on working. We have a pair of FX inverters on our boat today.
In the midst of all the crap coming out of Xantrex, around 2005-2006 they kicked out a new high-end product line called the XW series. It consisted of inverters, solar chargers, generator controllers, and control panels, all networked with a canbus, and working as a system. I installed one to replace our Trace SW back in 2007, and it hasn't missed a beat in the last 10 years. It's a really outstanding system. How this came out of Xantrex is a mystery, but it did.
Not long after the XW line came out, and probably coupled with the beating that Xantrex was taking over their other products, they sold to Schneider Electric. The Xantrex name remained with the consumer products, and Schneider rebranded the XW series as the Schneider Conext product line.
So there you have it - probably way more than you ever wanted to know. But the bottom line is that at least historically, not everything with the Xantrex name on it is crap.
Here's their history, as best I can remember as a customer along the way...
First there was Heart Interface. I think they were one of the first inverter companies with products that were widely used in vehicles and boats. My first off-grid inverter was a Freedom 10, 1kw MSW inverter/charger. These were very solid products.
Xantrex bought Heart Interface and continued selling the Freedom product line for a long time - perhaps even still today.
Trace was another early company and they made a full line of inverters, including the first widely used pure sine wave inverter, the SW series. These were very robust systems and widely used in marine, vehicles, and off-grid applications. Lots are still in service today. I ran a house on one for several years, and still have the retired SW4024 in my shop waiting to be reused somewhere else.
Xantrex bought Trace, and continued to sell the SW, but there was some sort of a spat between Xantrex and the core Trace team, and the Trace guys all left. Under Xantrex's ownership, the UL standard for grid-tied anti-islanding came into force, and the SW didn't comply, so Trace had to make some firmware modifications. They obtained UL compliance, but screwed up a bunch of other things at the same time. This was the first indication that Xantrex didn't understand the product they were selling and trying to maintain. Then they came out with the SW+ series, and it was basically a belly flop.
In parallel, I think under new management, Xantrex went on an acquisition binge and bought up pretty much every consumer inverter company out there. Names like ProSine come to mind, and I think (but am not sure) this was the inverter that caused everyone so much trouble. It was sine wave, 1-2kw, small, and inexpensive. I had one of these in a boat and it was a POS.
At this point, Xantrex seemed to be a company with a corner on the market, a ton of products, but nobody home in engineering. So when anything went wrong, all they could do was replace products, deny any problems, and try to make customers go away, which they did.
Again in parallel, let's go back to Trace and the exodus of that team from Xantrex. They left and formed Outback, names because their office was out behind the Xantrex office. And they produced the FX line of sine wave inverters. I recently learned from an industry insider that "FX" stands for "Fu$@ck Xantrex". Outback continues to have outstanding products, though they are products designed by engineers, for engineers, i.e. very complex and difficult to understand. But once set up, they just keep on working. We have a pair of FX inverters on our boat today.
In the midst of all the crap coming out of Xantrex, around 2005-2006 they kicked out a new high-end product line called the XW series. It consisted of inverters, solar chargers, generator controllers, and control panels, all networked with a canbus, and working as a system. I installed one to replace our Trace SW back in 2007, and it hasn't missed a beat in the last 10 years. It's a really outstanding system. How this came out of Xantrex is a mystery, but it did.
Not long after the XW line came out, and probably coupled with the beating that Xantrex was taking over their other products, they sold to Schneider Electric. The Xantrex name remained with the consumer products, and Schneider rebranded the XW series as the Schneider Conext product line.
So there you have it - probably way more than you ever wanted to know. But the bottom line is that at least historically, not everything with the Xantrex name on it is crap.
twistedtree
Guru
True, but I don't think it's as bad as you say. Inverters are typically 90% or more efficient. But I agree that running off DC is usually more efficient, and I too have converted a number of things to do just that. My focus has been mostly on the things that run 24x7 since even the small loads really add up.
Also, I see a lot of boats in the 40' range that are set up the same way, so I don't think it's strictly about size. It's a factor, but not the only thing. Our grand banks was set up the same way, though the fridge was DC. I think it's more about the level of convenience you want, and that's largely independent of boat length.
I guess another way of looking at it is that having 24x7 inverter service doesn't preclude putting loads on DC where that's preferable. But I do think there is a significant convenience in 24x7 inverter service. I have found it to be extremely reliable, and once you have it, it opens up other possibilities.
Northern Spy
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Thanks for the summary. Was just looking at Outback inverters online. The thread about getting rid of an inverter, is making me consider installing one.
Irony.
dhays
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I agree completely after having had one for only under a year now. I would never go back.
twistedtree
Guru
Last edited:
psneeld
Guru
While I think everything we experience day to day has incrementally gotten better and better through the years...
Everything works till it doesn't.
How you set up your boat for every day use and in the event of a failure is how much you enjoy your cruising.
Plus your budget to buy, replace and ship things has something to do with how satisfied you are.
Inverter chargers have gotten a lot better in the last 15 years...I think I am ready to pull the trigger on buying one....but I would be a fool to think their reliability versus their complexity is the same as anything simple.
Everything works till it doesn't.
How you set up your boat for every day use and in the event of a failure is how much you enjoy your cruising.
Plus your budget to buy, replace and ship things has something to do with how satisfied you are.
Inverter chargers have gotten a lot better in the last 15 years...I think I am ready to pull the trigger on buying one....but I would be a fool to think their reliability versus their complexity is the same as anything simple.
Like we all should know: "Simple is as Simple Does!"
FF
Guru
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One hint for folks with square wave inverters is to use universal power tools .
These are the ones with brushes. Drills , grinders ,belt sanders and many tools can be found at tag sales.
These unit will not overheat when provided with whatever output the inverter makes.
Sine wave is needed for heavy loads air cond , scuba refill , but not for many tools.
These are the ones with brushes. Drills , grinders ,belt sanders and many tools can be found at tag sales.
These unit will not overheat when provided with whatever output the inverter makes.
Sine wave is needed for heavy loads air cond , scuba refill , but not for many tools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancora
Never had an inverter, just another thing to go wrong.
However, Semi - ancora makes a point. In that: Items you mentioned are needed items to always have aboard and operational, depending on boat model/type. Whereas... a boat of any model/type can do without an inverter. Therefore, the inverter is an extra item, not a prime item.
All you really need on a boat is the hull. Everything else is optional.
One thing I figured out a long time ago is different boats are vastly different and different boaters have different boating needs. Too often on boating forums, people assume that everybody else's boat is just like theirs and everyone else's needs are just like theirs.
In reality, our boats are different, our style of boating is different and our needs are different. Some of us are minimalists, much like backpack camping. Others have our boats set up like a five star luxury hotel and want all the comforts that go with that. Most of us are somewhere in between.
Having or not having an inverter is not something to be proud of, it's just equipping a boat to suit our needs. Nothing more, nothing less.
In reality, our boats are different, our style of boating is different and our needs are different. Some of us are minimalists, much like backpack camping. Others have our boats set up like a five star luxury hotel and want all the comforts that go with that. Most of us are somewhere in between.
Having or not having an inverter is not something to be proud of, it's just equipping a boat to suit our needs. Nothing more, nothing less.
FF
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With no inverter its hard to charge power tool batts , hand sanding?
Crank to drill a hole?
No cell phone charger (for those that use them?)
Crank to drill a hole?
No cell phone charger (for those that use them?)
1. For general doings aboard boat [hour here, couple to a few hours there]: Good pwr tool batt's power output lasts for long time, especially with a spare batt. Plenty of time for me to keep em charged as gen set helps cook breakfast or dinner. Otherwise, for larger projects I have boat at marina with land based AC outlet.
2. Happen to have dad's original, old, little hand crank drill he kept aboard boats in mid 20th Century... occasionally I use it to drill a small hole here and there - memories! Also have his Yankee screw driver - never use it, should put in display case in house...
3. Cell phones and similar stuff charge off a cigarette lighter with correct cord and adapter. Ezy Peezy!
I'm not saying that inverters are bad or useless. They obviously are very useful for many items aboard boat when a good brand is installed correctly. What I am saying, for some of us who want less to dicker with, to pay for, and to replace as needed... in keeping things simple aboard boat, an inverter is not really necessary.
You can surely charge a cell phone from a 12 volt system. Chargers are available most everywhere that plug into the cigarette lighter sockets. In the last couple of years, USB chargers that run off 12 volt systems have become available. West Marina and other vendors sell them.
As for tools, personally, my planned maintenance and modifications happens at the home marina where electrical power and parts are available. Of course unplanned maintenance occurs wherever I am but usually at some marina.
.................. I'm not saying that inverters are bad or useless. They obviously are very useful for many items aboard boat when a good brand is installed correctly. What I am saying, for some of us who want less to dicker with, to pay for, and to replace as needed... in keeping things simple aboard boat, an inverter is not really necessary.
You probably didn't read my post above about boats and needs being different, but you talk about keeping things simple and not paying for things, yet you have a genset on your boat. An inverter is far simpler than a genset.
Again, boats are different and individual needs or wants are different. You have a genset and feel you don't need an inverter. That's fine for you. Since my boat is smaller than yours and I don't have a genset, an inverter is my only source of 120 volts AC power when away from the dock. If I want to warm up yesterday's leftovers in the microwave or cook a microwave meal, the inverter is needed. It also powers or charges my laptop.
Different boats, different requirements. We're not all in the same boat.
Yup - I read your post. Our Tolly came with a good condition 7.5 KW Kohler gen set. If it hadn't... I'd purchase a Honda or such... pretty much no matter size of boat. I like having access to AC electric power aboard.
Pretty much as you allude to... different boat strokes for different boat folks!
