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Old 12-22-2018, 09:53 AM   #1
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Super capacitors vs batteries

I was just reading a thread on Cruiser Forum about the use of super capacitors to replace batteries. there was also a link to a new battery chemistry.(https://www.slashgear.com/honda-reve...rage-06557121/ )
They both look like something that is very interesting new ideas.
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Old 12-22-2018, 11:04 AM   #2
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My son touts thier future....he has seen them in action at substations.

The future is racing towards us, should be intetesting
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Old 12-22-2018, 11:46 AM   #3
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I talked an engineer who has been using surplus capacitors instead of batteries in his home solar system. Said he had years of reliable service and better performance for a fraction of the price.


Since then I have wondered about using capacitors in electric cars, etc.


Fluoride may be controversial.
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Old 12-22-2018, 12:31 PM   #4
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We put fluoride on our teeth, why not in our batteries?
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Old 12-22-2018, 01:30 PM   #5
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Blamed for cancer and bone issues. I'm no expert and haven't paid it enough attention to give you a useful answer but the controversy goes back seventy years or so. Part of it had to do with the nuclear energy industry and part was the earlier lack of controls, precision and accuracy in mixing with water. I saw a mixer in the early nineties, it was impressive. Looked like something from an operating room. And of course the pervasive, ubiquitous perception that all chemicals cause cancer.

Alum was the drinking water treatment that I found most repulsive. Treat mud with mud.

The topic of water treatment could easily be a lifelong pursuit.
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Old 12-22-2018, 01:58 PM   #6
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Its unconventional but it works excellent for starting engines. Charge up the cap from the house bank when needed. Allows a bigger house bank. Some day in the near future, the car starter battery will be replaced with a lightweight capacitor and the charging battery will be the size of a pack of smokes or smaller.
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Old 12-22-2018, 02:02 PM   #7
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Yep; dont want to brush your teeth with soluble uranium tetrafluoride (UF4).

Said in jest, but the issue is more of the unintended consequences of industry.
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Old 12-23-2018, 05:50 AM   #8
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The most likely replacement for LA batterys will have a nano carbo fluid that carries the charge.

Advantages 3x the power density in the same volume , but the real biggie is as you drain and replace the charge fluid the energy left can be measured...As can the energy put into the battery.

This (plus the rapidity of fluid change ) will allow the various gov agencies to TAX the energy , as they do today with fuel.

A rapid refill and the ability to easily have battery cars pay for the "transportation fair share" (trains to nowhere empty buses) will get a big push from our rulers.
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Old 12-23-2018, 07:28 AM   #9
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In the linked article, it mentions "room temperature."

My car is rarely at room temperature. Half the year it's far colder. And of course, the coldest days are when you need your battery at its best.

Granted, many boats never see cold weather. But for for a mass-market solution, I think a battery would need to work quite a bit below room temperature.
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Old 12-23-2018, 07:36 AM   #10
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Car start with D cell sized capacitiors
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Old 12-23-2018, 08:27 AM   #11
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HW; awesome find! I just checked out the data sheets on the D cap. They are really cost effective. This is a rapidly emerging technology. I suspect one limiting factor is the balance of charge in this series arrangement. A single low C cap will have a higher V across it during charge. Not clear what will happen then. 2.85 V across an individual cap is the Vne.
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Old 12-23-2018, 08:36 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diver dave View Post
HW; awesome find! I just checked out the data sheets on the D cap. They are really cost effective. This is a rapidly emerging technology. I suspect one limiting factor is the balance of charge in this series arrangement. A single low C cap will have a higher V across it during charge. Not clear what will happen then. 2.85 V across an individual cap is the Vne.
Funny thing is that video was from 2013!!! There has to be even better out there.
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Old 12-23-2018, 11:03 AM   #13
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Marine starting solution:

https://www.skeletontech.com/skelsta...ne-module-2018


They were at the last marine trade show.
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Old 12-23-2018, 11:54 AM   #14
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How about capacitors for dummies? I know a capacitor stores electrical power but where does the stored power come from? The batteries?
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Old 12-23-2018, 12:09 PM   #15
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Both caps and batteries store energy. Batteries store chemical energy that is transformed into electrical energy on demand.
Capacitors store energy directly as electrical energy in the form of an electric field in the dielectric. Of course, both have limited energy content, and each require (charging) from a different source of energy. Alternators, solar cells, etc.
In theory, a battery can charge a capacitor, but also a capacitor can charge a battery. All depends on the numbers. The energy in a cap is 1/2 * F * Voltage squared. A battery is usually described as kWh for energy (not Amp-hours).
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Old 12-23-2018, 12:31 PM   #16
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Interesting stuff... https://www.wired.co.uk/article/supe...ic-car-battery
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Old 12-23-2018, 01:23 PM   #17
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Capacitors are great in delivering lots of amps for a short time which is a good match for starting loads. They are not great for storing lots of energy.

Example: A good sized capacitor of 75000uF (microFarad) would only store 5 Watt seconds of energy at 12V versus a 100 Amphour battery would provide roughly 3,600,000 Watt seconds of energy. You'd have to parallel 720,000 caps to be equivalent to one 100Ah battery.

Now, if the charging voltage of the cap was 1,000V, it would store 37,000 Watt seconds. You would need only 100 caps in parallel to equal a 100 Amphour battery. But that 1,000V cap would probably be pretty big and expensive and one would have to up/down convert for 12/24V devices.
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Old 12-28-2018, 01:35 PM   #18
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I purchased a Winplus 12v Car Jump Starter at Costco the size of a very thick smartphone. It starts up my Audi A8 or our Volvos without hesitation. I believe the technology is Lithium Ion. Probably won't work for a house bank but should start up my boat's Perkins engine. I can charge the pack from my laptop USB port or a 12 volt source.
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Old 12-28-2018, 02:37 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mramoo View Post
I was just reading a thread on Cruiser Forum about the use of super capacitors to replace batteries. there was also a link to a new battery chemistry.(https://www.slashgear.com/honda-reve...rage-06557121/ )
They both look like something that is very interesting new ideas.
The questions in my mind is:

Does this fluoride battery technology use any scarce material? How abundant is the availability of the fluoride element.
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Old 12-28-2018, 04:09 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88FuHwa View Post
I purchased a Winplus 12v Car Jump Starter at Costco the size of a very thick smartphone. It starts up my Audi A8 or our Volvos without hesitation. I believe the technology is Lithium Ion. Probably won't work for a house bank but should start up my boat's Perkins engine. I can charge the pack from my laptop USB port or a 12 volt source.
My thinking is a capacitor for starting wouldn't have enough backbone to get my perkins going on a cold morning. For both our current Perkins & the Detroit in our previous boat, on a cold morning I have to hold the stop (fuel shut-off solenoid) down for a few revolutions to get some heat built up in the cylinders. Upon releasing the solenoid, the cold fuel is introduced into the warmer cylinders & the engines will begrudgingly start. Most of the time I'll even parallel the house bank with the starting battery to help things along. I just don't see a cap as continuing the burst of power I need to get the engine to fire
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