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Old 12-28-2018, 07:49 PM   #21
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The questions in my mind is:

Does this fluoride battery technology use any scarce material? How abundant is the availability of the fluoride element.
lts very abundant and cheap
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Old 12-28-2018, 09:25 PM   #22
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Maybe a byproduct of the fertilizer industry.
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Old 12-29-2018, 08:26 AM   #23
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I have posted here about the supercap start batteries but with a $1000 purchase price, it isn't worth it. I like the idea of a 20 lb battery vs 150lb for a 8D or even 4D battery. A 24-volt supercap is also 20 lb, and can be charged by 12 volts.

The downside to supercap batteries is that they have about 20 seconds start power. If you're not running in 20 seconds, you'll need 10+ minutes to recharge, and the power source to recharge them. Capacitors love to dump their power in one massive discharge. That does not make them a very good battery, and most of the new technology is the tech to dole the stored power out as needed. They can be charged and discharged thousands or even millions of times with no problems, but I can't say the same about the technology to slow down the output to usable voltage & amperages. All electronics have a lifetime... we just don't know it is.

If you're one to sit in your car with the radio playing, a supercap isn't for you. Anything with minimal power draw will waste more power than needed, just to supply the minimal draw.

Over-the-road trucks are replacing their 24-volt starting banks with 24-volt supercaps due to weight. Their 12vdc charging ports off the house bank boosts the voltage to charge the supercaps up but they have the 20-second limit.

Note that it takes a lot of amps to charge it back up, since it can't create the energy, it can only store it.

Maxwell Technologies Engine Starting Module
https://www.maxwell.com/products/esm/24v-esm
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Old 12-29-2018, 08:32 AM   #24
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Maxwell said their technology was not approved for Marine applications...

But at $1000 per battery, it's not viable either, so it's a moot point.
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Old 12-29-2018, 09:47 AM   #25
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IMO they don't store energy well over a long time frame. If you don't use and recharge them frequently they will be dead. Many boats don't get used all that frequently. Dock power can keep them charged but then what is the advantage over batteries?
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Old 12-29-2018, 10:28 AM   #26
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The primary advantage of Supercaps is that they work in all temperatures, have nearly infinite life, and weigh very little compared to a battery. They do have a self-discharge problem but can be charged from dead to operational in a few minutes.

They make sense in a hybrid car, for an example. When you slow down, the inertia drives a generator that charges the supercap up. When you accelerate, you drain the supercap, so you get the effect of having a more powerful engine because the engine and the generator/motor are pulling the car up to speed. They weigh very little, compared to even Lithium Ion batteries and far less than lead-acid batteries.

Does it make sense in a boat? No, since it would not replace your house bank. It might replace your starting bank, and be charged off the house bank. It certainly would make wiring simpler, since all you ever need to charge is the house bank.
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Old 12-29-2018, 11:54 AM   #27
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There are people making and using capacitors for automotive batteries. Back when I was a kid, I used several in some of my vehicles to power the sound system without killing the battery.



Here is one that's touted to have made it 3 years and still going.


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Old 12-29-2018, 05:21 PM   #28
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Maybe a byproduct of the fertilizer industry.
Also a byproduct of the aluminum industry converting basalt to aluminum with electricity.
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Old 12-30-2018, 01:44 PM   #29
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It also is mined out of the ground in large purple crystals in the northern US
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Old 12-31-2018, 06:30 AM   #30
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Trucks have federal weight limits , an extra 100 or 200 lbs for cargo is extra money per load .


Might be worth it to them.
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Old 12-31-2018, 09:32 AM   #31
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Trucks often use 4 group 31s or equivalent, so more than a hundred or two hundred pounds, still, not quite enough to make a difference in a truck which, including load and trailer is restricted to 80,000 pounds.
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Old 01-02-2019, 11:41 AM   #32
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Supercaps have been used for engine starting for over twenty (20) years now. The technology satisfies the requirements for high currents, for short periods of time, on a repetitive basis. Pulse-Power demands. They cannot replace the energy needs provided by batteries for house loads. When integrated properly the supercap can supply engine starting power regardless of the SOC of the batteries onboard. The super cap should be totally independent on battery SOC. More details at https://www.koldban.com/default.asp
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Old 01-02-2019, 01:32 PM   #33
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Supercaps have been used for engine starting for over twenty (20) years now. The technology satisfies the requirements for high currents, for short periods of time, on a repetitive basis. Pulse-Power demands. They cannot replace the energy needs provided by batteries for house loads. When integrated properly the supercap can supply engine starting power regardless of the SOC of the batteries onboard. The super cap should be totally independent on battery SOC. More details at https://www.koldban.com/default.asp
That $800 price tag is going to limit its market; but, the idea is very sound, and a voltmeter will give a very close read on its contained energy, unlike most batteries.

I just designed and built a little circuit that used a 1/2 Farad capacitor; the intent is to hold up the 12V supply line to electronics during engine start. The scheme is to avoid the use of a house battery on small boats. Parts cost is around $50.
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Old 01-02-2019, 04:24 PM   #34
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Capacitors have a place on boats in the inverter. As you convert DC to AC, the caps can allow for brief impulse loading by giving you a larger DC bus capacity.
Think 1500 watt inverter with 1500 watt cap bank. That would allow you to overload the inverter, like a microwave for a short duration, or withstand a blackout or brownout.
This technology exists on Ship to shore electrical cranes. As you lift, you go into overload to pick the load up, once inertia takes over current drops. As you lower, you Regen to caps first, then back to grid or burn off as heat.
Happens as fast as every five minutes with thousands of amps.
Problem is failure, very spectacular.
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Old 02-08-2019, 08:43 AM   #35
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Guess who just bought Maxwell? Tesla!
https://qz.com/1541864/tesla-bought-...tracapacitors/

One thing where ultracaps would shine is to supply batteries for regen braking. Unlike a battery, an ultracap does not store energy in a chemical change and does not have a charge / discharge lifetime like a battery.

Regen braking is where you use the electric propulsion motor as a generator and convert the forward momentum to electricity, and not wear / friction on the braking system. When you're ready to get rolling again, it uses the captured energy and the propulsion motor to start the car rolling again.

Ultracaps are high capacity, lightweight devices and could store and release the energy almost infinitely. Leave the battery bank for the charging and propulsion of the vehicle and you'll have longer battery life since you won't have mini-charge cycles every time they hit the brakes. I think it makes sense.

Of course, the article seems to say that the reason why Tesla purchased Maxwell was to improve their battery technology, not Supercaps. We will see, I guess.
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Old 02-08-2019, 09:40 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by rolomart3 View Post
The questions in my mind is:

Does this fluoride battery technology use any scarce material? How abundant is the availability of the fluoride element.
F minerals (calcium fluorite) are ubiquitous and not in short supply. Far more capacity and good mineral deposits than demand. Big use is HF acid. Highly corrosive.
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Old 02-08-2019, 09:43 AM   #37
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My thinking is a capacitor for starting wouldn't have enough backbone to get my perkins going on a cold morning. e
Heated ER or Wolverine heaters work wonders on those chilly mornings.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:22 AM   #38
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My thinking is a capacitor for starting wouldn't have enough backbone to get my perkins going on a cold morning. For both our current Perkins & the Detroit in our previous boat, on a cold morning I have to hold the stop (fuel shut-off solenoid) down for a few revolutions to get some heat built up in the cylinders. Upon releasing the solenoid, the cold fuel is introduced into the warmer cylinders & the engines will begrudgingly start. Most of the time I'll even parallel the house bank with the starting battery to help things along. I just don't see a cap as continuing the burst of power I need to get the engine to fire
I would think that one could size the capacitor to the required energy needed for the job.
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Old 02-09-2019, 10:21 AM   #39
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The trick with a capacitor is that the energy is not produced with a fixed voltage. Almost all of a batteries energy is within a 10% range of voltage.
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Old 02-13-2019, 02:58 PM   #40
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I have big diesels that require some serious power to crank them, much like the rest of you.

Batteries are around $450USD each conservatively and last around 4 years. They get a real hammering. (that means $900 for a 24v bank).

If I was to add 2 of these (one for each engine) https://www.skeletontech.com/ultraca...983/category=0

I'm 24v starting so I'd be investing $3200 plus shipping in USD. On the surface it doesnt seem worth it.

Where it does seem worth it however, is in dead battery situations. The technology allows me to rapidly (less than 10 minutes) charge these things up using any source (including my dead batteries as long as they have more than 9v) - to a point where I can get my main engines started - and I could even use a small booster battery to do this.

In automotive settings this could be a massive plus where kids and adults alike are draining their car batteries below the voltage required to get the cc to start - but where they still have enough power to full power up a capacitor bank.

I think the benefits are clearly their, but like anything - its whether it solves enough of a problem / reduces cost enough to make it worth doing.

At the end of the day - for most of us - it comes down to the "cost benefit" -

Has anyone fitted these to their boats?
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