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Old 08-13-2014, 08:08 PM   #21
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Just completed an entire House Battery bank and box replacement, and Crimp & Solder is the way I do it. Granted, it is not easy and takes a lot longer, but I still feel the very low impedance of a large soldered battery terminal trumps the crimp-only approach.

I Never worry about any connection ever even getting warm, as long as I check the nut torque occasionally. And, as you can see, I am a Trojan fan...


I also agree with psneeld, my vehicles take a lot more pounding than my House Batts.
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:24 PM   #22
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I love it when a plan comes together.....
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:59 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Delta_JimS View Post
Just completed an entire House Battery bank and box replacement, and Crimp & Solder is the way I do it. Granted, it is not easy and takes a lot longer, but I still feel the very low impedance of a large soldered battery terminal trumps the crimp-only approach.

I Never worry about any connection ever even getting warm, as long as I check the nut torque occasionally. And, as you can see, I am a Trojan fan...


I also agree with psneeld, my vehicles take a lot more pounding than my House Batts.
Where's the fuse ?
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Old 08-14-2014, 07:38 AM   #24
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Just completed an entire House Battery bank and box replacement, and Crimp & Solder is the way I do it. Granted, it is not easy and takes a lot longer, but I still feel the very low impedance of a large soldered battery terminal trumps the crimp-only approach. .......
I think you're fooling yourself with that "very low impedance" thing but if it makes you feel better, that's what counts.

For your installation you could have purchased the cables and terminals from genuinedealz.com and for a small fee they would have installed the lugs professionally.
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Old 08-14-2014, 08:57 AM   #25
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The point of the OP is to see that "even professionally crimped" terminals may not be as low impedance as Delta_JimS suggests...based on the infrared pics (that I clearly stated need more verification...but they do show Trojans point).

Who says Genuinedealz crimps are any better than the ones in Trojans photos? Just because they look nice covered in heat shrink doesn't mean everything...but to be fair I am sure they are fine and I too have used them but still doesn't mean they are as GOOD as crimped and soldered...just that they meet a "accepted standard".

I would love to see independent testing of crimpers, styles and standards much like the anchor testing...then we could discuss professioanal testing results instead of just opinions....
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:40 AM   #26
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A proper electrical terminal connection is made mechanically And electrically.

In small wire sizes the big buck crimping tool is claimed to crush the wire into the terminal leaving no space .

Weather the force of a crimping tool can do this to start sized wires in up to debate.

If its done with a swedging style setup (as done with sailboat rigging) perhaps..

The usual lever crimp-er may not be near the requirement to cold flow .

Simplest is to order the wiring in advance , but a plumbers cast iron ladle filled with molten solder works fine for a dunk .
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:59 AM   #27
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I actually purchased the 3/0 cable and Lugs from Genuinedealz, based on Al's recommendation some time ago.
Unfortunately, I cannot recommend them nor will I ever buy from them again.

I felt that the cable was inferior and the lugs were thin.(as compared to Ancor)
But, that is not the main reason I will never buy from them again. Within a few days of my purchase, my credit card was stolen and used in nearby SC.(I am in CA)
May be total coincidence, but this is the Only time I have ever had my card # compromised.

I also purchased a heavy-duty professional hyrdrolic crimper from TEMco for this project, as also recommended by this site. This is a critical system on my vessel and I wanted solid crimps.

Turned out the TEMco was way over-kill, but makes no-nonsense crimps.
As stated above, a crimp with this tool leaves very little (if any) room for solder unlike other crimpers I have used. I personally chose to top them off with solder anyway.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:26 AM   #28
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I actually purchased the 3/0 cable and Lugs from Genuinedealz, based on Al's recommendation some time ago.
Unfortunately, I cannot recommend them nor will I ever buy from them again.

I felt that the cable was inferior and the lugs were thin.(as compared to Ancor)
But, that is not the main reason I will never buy from them again. Within a few days of my purchase, my credit card was stolen and used in nearby SC.(I am in CA)
May be total coincidence, but this is the Only time I have ever had my card # compromised.

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I have used GenuineDealz.com several times, and have been impressed with the fast service and the quality of the product. Never had my credit card compromised, either.

But it can happen, I guess, and I can certainly see why you would not be happy about the situation. You have my sympathy (for what it is worth).
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:42 AM   #29
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I have used GD a lot very happily, though only for lighter weight cables and terminals. Found the quality at least equivalent to Ancor (in fact the heat shrink terminals looked like they were both sourced from the same OEM) I am curious as to how the 3/0 cable was found to be lacking.

If you are paranoid about it (or even if you are not for that matter), feel all your terminals and power cables on board when they are under a load on a regular basis. They should never feel warm to the touch. The boat you save may be your own!

This is, among other things, how I discovered some poorly soldered and installed connections by a PO. Oh, and some hammered and dimple crimped ones too!
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:02 PM   #30
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Speaking of PO connections; pictured is some of what I inherited when I bought the boat, along with loose and corroded connections.

At the time, I thought I was getting a pretty good deal on the boat since I could do most of the deferred maintenance myself. Today, after 700 hrs of labor and 10s of boat bucks, I am not so sure....
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:31 AM   #31
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I'm not sure I'm so passionate on this issue of soldering crimped stranded wire. There are just too many variables for me to have a passionate answer. I have simply observed over the years that jobs I did 20 years ago with non tinned wire and off the shelf standard crimps I got to do again 5 years later. I also found during that period wires that had wicked corrosion 6 or seven feet into the wire in only two seasons on an exposed down rigger cable. I observed those installations and countless of those I inherited. I've certainly seen my share of broken solid and soldered cables too, so I know from empirical,observation that sold terminals can and do fracture over time, not just in theory. I also know from observation that we'll secured cables, soldered or not, and especially those that are sealed, soldered or not, are rarely in bad shape, even as the wire itself has lost its flexibility. So that's what I really pay attention to.

Here is what I do know. Having acquired high quality wire, terminals, crimpers appropriate for the terminals and wire gauges all the way up to 4/0, at no small cost. In the past 15 or so years that I have insisted on good wire, good terminals, adhesive shrink and we'll supported, I've only ever had to redo a connection where something was not perfect to begin with, such as a heat shrink that got nicked or split and I should have done it over right then at the start. Otherwise, I can pretty much forget them.

While there may or may not be benefits to solder a terminal. Depending on the situation, I could see it either way, and have acted on a case by case basis (voltage sensing terminations sometimes get solder), most don't. I just know that the real magic is not in the soldering, it's in the quality of the entire experience. If you pick good quality cable, terminals, tools and technique, the rest just won't matter that much. If you don't, soldered or not soldered won't matter at all, it's going to fail.

In short, the discussion as stated is nothing more than pot stirring, not learning.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:17 PM   #32
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I'm not sure I'm so passionate on this issue of soldering crimped stranded wire. There are just too many variables for me to have a passionate answer. I have simply observed over the years that jobs I did 20 years ago with non tinned wire and off the shelf standard crimps I got to do again 5 years later. I also found during that period wires that had wicked corrosion 6 or seven feet into the wire in only two seasons on an exposed down rigger cable. I observed those installations and countless of those I inherited. I've certainly seen my share of broken solid and soldered cables too, so I know from empirical,observation that sold terminals can and do fracture over time, not just in theory. I also know from observation that we'll secured cables, soldered or not, and especially those that are sealed, soldered or not, are rarely in bad shape, even as the wire itself has lost its flexibility. So that's what I really pay attention to.

Here is what I do know. Having acquired high quality wire, terminals, crimpers appropriate for the terminals and wire gauges all the way up to 4/0, at no small cost. In the past 15 or so years that I have insisted on good wire, good terminals, adhesive shrink and we'll supported, I've only ever had to redo a connection where something was not perfect to begin with, such as a heat shrink that got nicked or split and I should have done it over right then at the start. Otherwise, I can pretty much forget them.

While there may or may not be benefits to solder a terminal. Depending on the situation, I could see it either way, and have acted on a case by case basis (voltage sensing terminations sometimes get solder), most don't. I just know that the real magic is not in the soldering, it's in the quality of the entire experience. If you pick good quality cable, terminals, tools and technique, the rest just won't matter that much. If you don't, soldered or not soldered won't matter at all, it's going to fail.

In short, the discussion as stated is nothing more than pot stirring, not learning.
Maybe for you...maybe not for many others.
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Old 08-21-2014, 02:25 PM   #33
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............... If you are paranoid about it (or even if you are not for that matter), feel all your terminals and power cables on board when they are under a load on a regular basis. They should never feel warm to the touch. The boat you save may be your own!........
Better yet, buy and use an infrared non contact thermometer to measure the temperature of the connections. You'll find a lot of uses for this tool around the boat if you do your own work.
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:37 PM   #34
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Better yet, buy and use an infrared non contact thermometer to measure the temperature of the connections. You'll find a lot of uses for this tool around the boat if you do your own work.
"
I use one extensively; a "must have" tool IMO. I don't think it is "better" than the hands test and certainly not as easy. A cable or termination should be ambient temperature. Much easier in most cases to run your hand along it than trying to aim an IR thermometer and take a reading. The IR is nice for places you can see but not easily reach, but you need good aim on small cables.

Ghost: I think your post is well put.
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Old 08-21-2014, 04:59 PM   #35
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Ghost: I think your post is well put.


Stirring the pot is a form of entertainment for some. It's not about the subject matter or socializing, it's all about the process.
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Old 08-21-2014, 05:05 PM   #36
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....... In short, the discussion as stated is nothing more than pot stirring, not learning.
And that's a shame because some folks come here to learn and go away more confused than when they came. I remember a guy who claimed the best way of making electrical splices on a boat was to twist the wires together and then insert them in a wire nut filled with 5200.

It's very hard to know who on a forum knows what he/she is talking about and who doesn't. And I suspect some folks post BS just to fan the flames.
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Old 08-21-2014, 05:45 PM   #37
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Yep...me and Trojan batteries are in cahoots to just post BS and fan the flames...none of the info they provided was useful to anyone...

Trojan must be FOS because a couple of **************** TFers said so.

Well...all I can say is.....
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:20 PM   #38
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Yep...me and Trojan batteries are in cahoots to just post BS and fan the flames...none of the info they provided was useful to anyone...

Trojan must be FOS because a couple of **************** TFers said so.

Well...all I can say is.....
If you are saying that you and Trojan consider all crimps to be equal, then yes you are both FOS. A properly crimped connector does not show the heat/resistance in the Trojan picture. I surmise they see mostly hammer and dimple crimps in the golf cart and floor scrubber world which make of the majority of their business. Take a look sometimes at how many if not most of these are wired.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:23 PM   #39
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Right......

nothing to be learned here.....

the world's a perfect place in some minds....
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:12 PM   #40
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I have a low threshold of tolerance for politics. It's not what I'm here for in any capacity. Admittedly it's a character weak point. The thick irony being that my own making a quip about it adds to the pot stirring, however well intentioned. I actually think that everyone here has, everyone, has a lot to offer. I just don't think it helps to start debating straw man arguments before anyone has even chimed in, and doing so in straw man fashion just leads to some kind of simplified good/bad conclusion while essentially telling everyone else to not comment if you happen to disagree or want to make things a little less oversimplified.

The value I personally get from everyone, really everyone here, is taking something I had previously thought of as black and white and realizing a new spectrum of choices to be made. Ironically, there are some here that really help to accomplish exactly that if we could just get away from this black and white style debate and bickering.

Anyhow, sorry for adding to the fray, again. I hope this explanation helps in some small way. I really do appreciate everyone's point of view. To quote one of my favorites by the name of Patton. "If everyone is thinking alike, somebody isn't thinking".

I hope you all can accept this apology. I'd appreciate that more than asking anyone to take sides.
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