Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-26-2013, 01:47 AM   #1
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Shopping for Used Electronics

Purchasing used electronic navigation gear is not a topic I see discussed much. Not nearly as fun as posting opinions about the latest gee whiz gadgets and gizmos. For my particular inland boating area I fail to see any real value in the systems currently available through normal vendors. My current vessel will not be taken outside the protected waters so bullet proof reliability and redundancy are not high priorities. Serious long range coastal cruising is definitely not in the cards for this vessel.

Adequate depth sounder and brand new VHF are already installed as well as compass, the basics. I am toying with the idea of adding a small radar to the mix. Long range is not needed as this will all be short range work. Console space is at a premium so size matters.

The problem is someone like myself that is as yet not acquainted with radar, recognizing a good deal on used equipment is not an easy task. I understand Furuno is a great brand and well supported but are there other brands with a long shelf life? Besides avoiding cathode ray tube screens is there anything else one should look for while shopping for this kind of gear on E bay?
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 07:03 AM   #2
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,534
For something as complex as a radar , I would ONLY purchase one that is installed on a boat and help with its removal.

Radar today has gone from being a power hog to just a modest load.

New can be has for under a Grand , why chase scrap?
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 08:46 AM   #3
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,803
I don't see any reason to avoid cathode ray screens, some outstanding radars fro Furuno and others use(d) them. When we cruised out your way the Mainship 430 we'd take on multi-day trips all through the Delta, had a Raymarine 70 series dome radar that really worked nicely in the tule fog. Something like that or an older Furuno, Koden JRC would do well. I agree, you want to see it working on a boat before buying unless it is from a reputable dealer rather than private seller you don't know.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 10:19 AM   #4
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
New can be has for under a Grand , why chase scrap?
I'm obviously shopping at the wrong place. Anyone care to share a link to a new radar for under a grand?

Sent by Craig from my iPhone using Trawler
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 10:26 AM   #5
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
I'm obviously shopping at the wrong place. Anyone care to share a link to a new radar for under a grand?

Sent by Craig from my iPhone using Trawler

You probably wouldn't want those models either. I have seen a couple SL72 Raymarine units for around that either used or new never installed...may have seen the one on onother cruising forum...maybe Ebay.

Great little unit...still have one on the tow boat and wouldn't trade it except for a bigger open array or one of the newer digital type.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 11:46 AM   #6
TF Site Team
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,647
For your radar needs (used), a JRC 1000/1500 will more than meet your stated needs, as would Raymarine.

JRC Radar 1000 LCD Complete Set Up Excellent Condition | eBay

JRC 1500 LCD Radar Display 18" Radome Wiring Free Shipping with Bin | eBay

Low Hours Raytheon Raymarine SL70 2KW Marine Radar System Complete w Dome Cable | eBay

You hit the nail on the head- getting practical training on radar usage is more important than the hardware. The latest gear uses the same operational principles as the older gear.

I'd advise looking at newer gear that is modular- that is, you can start with a display and radar, and add sounder, GPS, etc as time and funds dictate.

Maybe something like this:
Raymarine A67 5 7" Multifunction Radar Pack | eBay

Small, powerful and meets all needs of GPS, chartplotter, radar capability, built in sounder, and expandability.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 11:58 AM   #7
Guru
 
River Cruiser's Avatar
 
City: UMR MM283
Country: US
Vessel Name: Northern Lights II
Vessel Model: Bayliner 3870
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,228
I went thru what your planning to do. Being a river boater I wanted radar as a safety item in case I got caught out at night or in the fog. At 1st. I wanted a stand alone unit but after searching for chart cards for the old Garmin GPSMap 235 I decided to go with a newer display that I could add radar to later on. During this process I had pretty much decided that for a stand alone unit it would be a Furuno 1623 or 1715, either one will do a fine job. The 1623 I found for under $1200.00 new the 1715 was around $1500.00, I've seen both on eBay new for less. So I would say you must 1st decide how you want to go - a mfd or stand alone. If you go with the mfd then you'll have to mate it with a compatible scanner. I went with used components & have $1500.00 in a 7" display & 4kw 48 mile open array plus $200.00 for a C-map + chart card. I wanted a 2 kw dome & was going to buy new but I got the 4kw for less than a new 2kw. I bought everything on eBay, be aware of the cost of a new unit & bid accordingly, also the location that it comes from can make a difference, think sandy.
__________________
Ron on Northern Lights II
I don't like making plans for the day because the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.
River Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 12:12 PM   #8
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,928
I woud not by any 2KW (or less) JRC or Furuno set from say 2003 and older....I have installed may be 50-75 of those radar sets and instructed owners on maybe another 25 sets .They will give you a false sense of security.yes they will pick up targets..ut many times they will not pick up ones you realy need...like small buoys in a choppy inllet or a hard target in light to med rain.

Back in those days the Raymarine Pathfinder series used more pulse lengths for different ranges to give a much better target resolution. night and day with the competition.

I really wouldn't spend $500 or more on just any old set when you can stretch to newer and get a return on your investment .... not a "look it sees the coastline" RADAR.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 12:30 PM   #9
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Ok I'm starting to follow the logic now. The whole multi function display thing had me confused for some reason.

If I follow the logic an MFD can be sourced and used as a depth sounder and then expanded to be GPS, chart plotter and radar in the future?

If so that would free up the small amount of space at my helm.

Sent by Craig from my iPhone using Trawler
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 12:52 PM   #10
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
Ok I'm starting to follow the logic now. The whole multi function display thing had me confused for some reason.

If I follow the logic an MFD can be sourced and used as a depth sounder and then expanded to be GPS, chart plotter and radar in the future?

If so that would free up the small amount of space at my helm.

Sent by Craig from my iPhone using Trawler
Yes...many MFDs start as a chartplotter (bad news is some require chips that are very expensive and if old enough may no longer be readily available)...and some have fishfinders built in so adding the ducer is a little more expensive tan if it all comes as a package deal.

Me...after 3000 miles...my laptop..a $29 usb GPS, free (updated regularly) charts, a free but older Furuno 1850 plotter/fishfinder given to me for helping the Doc next door with his boat , a $99 dollar ducer for it and it's been easy and great...not even one grounding.

So navigation can be relatively inexpensive...but now adding a RADAR can throw all that out if I insist on one of the Simrad 3G/4G babies..
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 01:09 PM   #11
TF Site Team
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I woud not by any 2KW (or less) JRC or Furuno set from say 2003 and older....I have installed may be 50-75 of those radar sets and instructed owners on maybe another 25 sets .They will give you a false sense of security.yes they will pick up targets..ut many times they will not pick up ones you realy need...like small buoys in a choppy inllet or a hard target in light to med rain.

Back in those days the Raymarine Pathfinder series used more pulse lengths for different ranges to give a much better target resolution. night and day with the competition.

I really wouldn't spend $500 or more on just any old set when you can stretch to newer and get a return on your investment .... not a "look it sees the coastline" RADAR.

(Bold quote above) Don't you mean pulse width?

I can't agree with your statement in total about an older radar system. While getting the latest MFD is ideal, to tka advantage of the newest generation of signal processing capabilities, the basics still remain in place from the early 40s- range = radiated power, and target discrimination = antenna height and rotation speed. depending on where CP is boating, an old Furuno, JRC, or Raymarine would more than fit the bill. The most important part of the equation would be CP getting water time to see how his radar operates in his home waters.

We had great surface radars (AN/SPS-10 and AN/SPS-67) on the carriers and destryers I was on- detection capability of over 50 miles. They were used almost exclusively in the 1/4 to 20 mile ranges. Likewise, I believe that CP will be using radar as a short range too (like most of us do) and a 2KW unit is more than adequate for that job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
Ok I'm starting to follow the logic now. The whole multi function display thing had me confused for some reason.

If I follow the logic an MFD can be sourced and used as a depth sounder and then expanded to be GPS, chart plotter and radar in the future?

If so that would free up the small amount of space at my helm.

Sent by Craig from my iPhone using Trawler
Correct. The newer generation Garmin, Lowrance/Simrad, Raymarine, and Furuno are all expandable and most are networkable via NMEA 2K cabling.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 01:31 PM   #12
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pau Hana View Post
(Bold quote above) Don't you mean pulse width?

I can't agree with your statement in total about an older radar system. While getting the latest MFD is ideal, to tka advantage of the newest generation of signal processing capabilities, the basics still remain in place from the early 40s- range = radiated power, and target discrimination = antenna height and rotation speed. depending on where CP is boating, an old Furuno, JRC, or Raymarine would more than fit the bill. The most important part of the equation would be CP getting water time to see how his radar operates in his home waters.

We had great surface radars (AN/SPS-10 and AN/SPS-67) on the carriers and destryers I was on- detection capability of over 50 miles. They were used almost exclusively in the 1/4 to 20 mile ranges. Likewise, I believe that CP will be using radar as a short range too (like most of us do) and a 2KW unit is more than adequate for that job.



Correct. The newer generation Garmin, Lowrance/Simrad, Raymarine, and Furuno are all expandable and most are networkable via NMEA 2K cabling.
Yes pulse width...stand corrected..

But the problem with the 10-15 year old JRC and Furuno sets (under 2KW and that's the trick) DON"T often fill the bill. I have stood there with disatisfied customers on numerous occasions or when setting up new installs and had trouble finding the treeline out 3-5 miles. That to me is pretty unacceptable performance at any price. I wasn't alone as the owners of the Marine Electronics store agreed with me and started to refuse to sell some of the units.

Sometimes they seemed to work fine...but many times they didn't. If it's one piece of gear I gotta trust...it's my RADAR.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 01:50 PM   #13
TF Site Team
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Yes pulse width...stand corrected..

But the problem with the 10-15 year old JRC and Furuno sets (under 2KW and that's the trick) DON"T often fill the bill. I have stood there with disatisfied customers on numerous occasions or when setting up new installs and had trouble finding the treeline out 3-5 miles. That to me is pretty unacceptable performance at any price. I wasn't alone as the owners of the Marine Electronics store agreed with me and started to refuse to sell some of the units.

Sometimes they seemed to work fine...but many times they didn't. If it's one piece of gear I gotta trust...it's my RADAR.
I've found that the biggest problem with the older radar sets was the lack of proper tweaking instructions- too much STC, not enough FTC or gain, relying too much on the IAGC, and it's a recipe for disaster. In the Navy, it was a constant fight to keep the settings correct for the given conditions...

..and the blame could be laid squarely on the manufacturer, as they assumed that the user has the technical skillset to tweak the radar.

Than being said, I'm really liking the auto-tune functions of the Raymarine MFD we have.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 02:00 PM   #14
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,928
I was a factory trained electronics tech by Raymarine, Furuno and Simrad.

All the tweeking in the world won't help some units some of the time.

And if I couldn't do it after all the trainingaand all the practice...hw the heck is a weekender if tat gonna do it when he/she probably already has their hands full?

Buy the little sets if you must...I would never trust my life or anyone else's to them..thus my very focused posts.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 03:50 PM   #15
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Given the relatively low cost of new electronics (relative to many other boating costs) we would never buy used electronics. Why buy something that's probably outdated in terms of technology and perhaps doesn't have much useful life left in it? So we have always bought new.

On the other hand, we also subscribe to the philosophy of never replacing anything on a boat unless it has failed or no longer does or can't do what you want it to do. To this end we buy the highest quality, most reliable, trouble-free electronics we are willing to spend the money on, which on our two boats has meant Furuno, Icom, Echotec, Signet, and Standard Horizon, with the idea that we will use them for a long, long time with no reason to replace them.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 04:01 PM   #16
TF Site Team
 
Pineapple Girl's Avatar
 
City: San Mateo, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pineapple Girl II
Vessel Model: PT 35
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,165
Craig there's a boat show in Oakland April 11-15. I highly recommend checking it out as often the vendors run "boat show specials" on last years stuff and there are good deals to be had. Check out Star Marine Electronics, great guys w great products.
__________________
-Jennifer
Pineapple Girl II 1984 PT 35
San Francisco Bay Area
www.pineapple-girl.blogspot.com
Pineapple Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 04:24 PM   #17
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
If I follow the logic an MFD can be sourced and used as a depth sounder and then expanded to be GPS, chart plotter and radar in the future?
Craig; My boat came with the MFD that had a plotter & GPS antenna only. I later added the radar (scanner) & the fish finder (Transducer). They don't make this model anymore as NorthStar was bought by Simrad. Most all the manufactures of MFDs are plug & play. You buy what you need initially and you can add the other functions later. (Of course you can buy all of them at once, too!)

1)Plotter came with boat 2) added the radar 3) then the fish finder & last 4) the video camera.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1458.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	116.7 KB
ID:	17585   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1831.jpg
Views:	73
Size:	135.2 KB
ID:	17586   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1833.jpg
Views:	74
Size:	116.3 KB
ID:	17587   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCN1211.JPG
Views:	77
Size:	54.1 KB
ID:	17588  
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 05:31 PM   #18
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Thanks everybody. This is making much more sense now. I was pricing units that had everything included, thus the sticker shock. I've since went back and seen the way they are listed at Defender and its much clearer now.

I was looking at radar but they where scanners meant to add on to MFD's. Was going nuts trying to figure out why they had no displays. Then the only thing that looked like a display screen was an MFD but they had chart plotters which I wasn't looking to buy. Lol, seems funny now.

I should have payed better attention when I was at the Sportsmans Expo with Ray and Al. Looks like a trip to the boat show is the next order of business.

Sent by Craig from my iPhone using Trawler
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2013, 01:57 PM   #19
Guru
 
sbu22's Avatar
 
City: New Orleans
Country: US
Vessel Name: Panache
Vessel Model: Viking 43 Double Cabin '76
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 680
Pau - AN/SPS-10 ??? Wow! I haven't heard or thought of that in decades. Jeez - synchros, slotted lines, band suppressors, PPIs.....
sbu22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2013, 02:31 PM   #20
TF Site Team
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbu22 View Post
Pau - AN/SPS-10 ??? Wow! I haven't heard or thought of that in decades. Jeez - synchros, slotted lines, band suppressors, PPIs.....
Indeed! USS Constellation from 1981 to 1986, then Staff Duty, CINCPACFLT for 3 years, Next tour was on the USS Leftwich, a Spruance based in Pearl.

My son is on the Stennis, and the electronics suite on that carrier simply boggles my mind- as does the phased array stuff on the Aegis class ships...
__________________

__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012