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Old 09-03-2018, 03:33 PM   #21
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Assuming your steering isn't binding up somehow, the only thing you can trade off with different tiller arm lengths, cylinder sizes, and steering pump sizes is the steering force required to turn the wheel, and the number of turns stop to stop. More turns equals less force required, and vice versa. And a bigger wheel will make it easier to turn, but a longer distance around the wheel rim.


Checking for binding would be the first step, it seems, Disconnect the rams from the tiller arm and confirm that the tiller can be moved without binding, and that the wheel moves the rams without binding.


Our steering is heavy, even at 10 turns lock to lock. Follow-up steering is a must for maneuvering.
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Old 09-03-2018, 03:36 PM   #22
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If the rudder won't turn by hand ( with the cylinders unhooked ) on that long tiller arm in front there's part of your problem. No reason it wouldn't turn unless something is bound up.
How is the steering with the cylinders unhooked ??? If it's 'easy' then the rudder is the problem.
Ever check the fluid level and bleed the system ??
Just a couple ideas....
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Old 09-03-2018, 05:45 PM   #23
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The fact that you can't move the rudder at all by hand with the cylinders disconnected sure sounds like it could be part or all of your problem. No way to know more until you figure out what's up with that.
The fitting on the top of the cylinder is likely for bleeding, don't grease that. There may be a grease fitting at the mounting end of the cylinder to grease the trunnion.
The fact that you have 3/8" hose, and that it's all hose sure doesn't help. You have to remember that when the fluid is moving it's moving in both lines, so the resistance is as much as 80ft of hose length.

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Originally Posted by LeoKa View Post
The results:
Helm Pump - 7005
Tiller length - 6"
Wheel dia - 40"
Hose dia - 3/8 see photos
Hose length - aprx. 35-40' - boat is 54' total
Rudder - won't turn by hand, after disconnecting the cylinders

The rudder is large and there is plenty of grease visible at the tiller area. I cannot what is below? There is greasing nipple in the middle of the rudder cylinder and it has some grease residue. I suspect it was greased at some point.
Should this still turn by hand if the bearing were in good shape? I tried to hammer it, but it would not move.
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Old 09-03-2018, 06:24 PM   #24
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The rudder looks ordinary, even has some balance area ahead of the post.

You should be able to turn the rudder by hand with the cylinders disconnected. This may be the problem or a large part of it. You could try greasing it and then work it back and forth with a large lever (or reconnect the cylinders to do it) - it is possible the grease has become hard and congealed.

The rudder will have a couple of bearing surfaces: the radial ones which we normally think of as the rudder bearings, also somewhere a vertical one that carries the weight of the rudder. Either can add significant friction.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:01 PM   #25
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The fitting on the top of the cylinder is likely for bleeding, don't grease that. There may be a grease fitting at the mounting end of the cylinder to grease the trunnion.
I was talking about a greasing nipple in the back of the rudder shaft. See photo.
It is at the middle down from the top, where the tiller assembly is.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:07 PM   #26
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The rudder will have a couple of bearing surfaces: the radial ones which we normally think of as the rudder bearings, also somewhere a vertical one that carries the weight of the rudder. Either can add significant friction.
I suspect, this can only be determined, if the boat is hauled out?
Shall I try to remove the tiller and look inside? Or, all the bearings are below anyway? As you see on the photo, there is lot of grease around the tiller.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:16 PM   #27
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The fact that you have 3/8" hose, and that it's all hose sure doesn't help. You have to remember that when the fluid is moving it's moving in both lines, so the resistance is as much as 80ft of hose length.
Regardless what the issue with the bearings at the rudder, I still consider to replace the hoses. Would it make any difference, if the hoses will have to have proper couplers to connect to the cylinders at the rudder and to the helm pump in the PH? If only the hoses are replaced, but using the existing cylinders and helm pump. See photo.
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Old 09-03-2018, 08:00 PM   #28
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The grease fitting is for waterproof grease. It keeps the shaft and tube lubed and some is forced up by water pressure and lubes the bottom side of the seal. W/O grease you could have marine growth. Grease fittings are common in large prop shafts, too.
I have Wagner hydraulic steering with a single 3" cylinder and twin rudders. 3.5 turns lock to lock with about the same size wheel. Whoever installed it used 3/4" id copper pipe that necks down to 1/2" hoses to fit the cylinder. I wouldn't say it's easy, but easier than cable steering.
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Old 09-03-2018, 11:25 PM   #29
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The grease fitting is for waterproof grease. It keeps the shaft and tube lubed and some is forced up by water pressure and lubes the bottom side of the seal. W/O grease you could have marine growth. Grease fittings are common in large prop shafts, too.
I have Wagner hydraulic steering with a single 3" cylinder and twin rudders. 3.5 turns lock to lock with about the same size wheel. Whoever installed it used 3/4" id copper pipe that necks down to 1/2" hoses to fit the cylinder. I wouldn't say it's easy, but easier than cable steering.
I think my main problem is that I cannot move the rudder by hand. The bearings need to be checked for sure. I just don't know how? Even if I haul it out, I have never done job like this.

Meanwhile, I found the manual of the helm pump and it says that the model I have 7005 requires 5/8 hose for a boat steering system length 50-60 feet. The 3/8 hose is good for boats between 30-50 feet. I am 54 feet.
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Old 09-03-2018, 11:46 PM   #30
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From your haulout photo, it looks like the rudder has a heel bearing, so it isn't going to fall out of the boat. Often the tiller arm itself acts as the thrust bearing, you'd like to have a means to clamp and retain the rudder if you loosen it in the water without knowing all the details. I'd start first by a bunch of pumps of grease and then working the rudder back and forth. Ultimately you may only find the reason on haul out. Perhaps the heel bearing is no longer aligned with the rudder tube.
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:47 AM   #31
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At this point I would put all focus on getting the rudder mechanism freed up. You can try great and moving it back and forth, but I expect that to really fix it you will need to haul, disassemble, and pull the rudder post. It would appear to be a steel tube with the shaft inside, and supported in some unknown way. Between years of rust and years of grease, and perhaps rusted up bearings, you will probably find your problem.
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Old 09-04-2018, 06:15 AM   #32
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Marine Hydraulic Engineerin

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We manufacture Hydro-Slave systems for trap and pot hauling applications. These consist of trap lifters, hanging blocks, motors, hoses, oil tanks, pumps and ...yes Steering systems.


I have dealt with the above folks and can assure you they will come up with more than one solution.

A constantly on Auto Pilot electric hyd pump might work , as would an engine driven pump.

We use the engine driven pump, not that expensive as its similar to a PS pump in a car. A fluid tank is also required.

The advantage to us is I much prefer to anchor than suffer a marina and the hyd pump allows the conversion of an electric windlass to hyd.No white smoke on a long hard pull.

It also reduces the load on the AP output as only valves that require 1/2 an amp are needed to operate.

There are many solutions , starting perhaps with a different rudder steering setup.

Ask the folks that can UPS the solution.

And since Maineacks are frugal , it might not be a white boat big $$ horror show .
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Old 09-06-2018, 07:44 PM   #33
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And since Maineacks are frugal , it might not be a white boat big $$ horror show .
Interestingly, I have looked their web site already. When time comes, I will certainly give them a call. Thanks.
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Old 09-06-2018, 07:48 PM   #34
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At this point I would put all focus on getting the rudder mechanism freed up. Between years of rust and years of grease, and perhaps rusted up bearings, you will probably find your problem.
I think we have an agreement on the solution. I do need to haul her out and take apart the rudder structure. That is the only way to know for sure, what the issue is?
I wish there was a write up on this, or a video somewhere. I'd like to do it myself, but I have never tried anything like this. Where to start, what tools to have, what is the starting point? Maybe it is not a big deal, with the right preparation, but the unknown is always worry-some.
My haul out is scheduled for December.
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:01 AM   #35
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"I think my main problem is that I cannot move the rudder by hand."

Start by loosening the rudder packing , if its too tight it could be the problem.

If it needs repacking use a modern packing , like Duramax , that does not drip, even modestly tight.
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Old 09-07-2018, 10:01 PM   #36
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Start by loosening the rudder packing , if its too tight it could be the problem.

If it needs repacking use a modern packing , like Duramax , that does not drip, even modestly tight.
What is packing? The top assembly where the rudder is connected inside to the tiller?
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Old 09-07-2018, 10:06 PM   #37
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From your haulout photo, it looks like the rudder has a heel bearing, so it isn't going to fall out of the boat. .
What is heel bearing?
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Old 09-08-2018, 05:51 AM   #38
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What is packing?

Unless the rudder is cased in a housing that goes way above the WL, packing , similar to what is on a propulsion shaft is required to keep water out of the boat.

Rudders have a number of styles , caps with lock rings to bolts pulling on a flange.

Have someone take a look at your system to tell you what in installed , and how to free it.
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Old 09-08-2018, 10:28 AM   #39
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Looking at he pictures it doesn't appear that there is a packing gland. They just ran the rudder tube to above the waterline. A lot easier if you have the room and no packing to worry about.
A heel bearing is the bottom bearing that the rudder sits on, usually it's part of the skeg. It bears most or all of the weight of the rudder and in my experience usually poorly designed.
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Old 09-10-2018, 04:18 PM   #40
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Let me also share an experience in case this helps. I have a 1987 Bruce Roberts Steel Trawler. The steering became very hard. It has an 8 turn lock to lock and I find that quite reasonable, although my wheel is about half the size of yours. The difficulty was with the bearings and the rudder tube. I have a two inch stainless rudder shaft and three cutlass bearings, one lower in the skeg and two in the upper rudder tube. The rudder tube is standard steel. While I could move the rudder with the steering, it was harder than it should be. I disconnected the hydraulic pistons and could barely move the rudder by hand. The cutlass bearings were being compressed onto the rudder shaft by rust between the rudder tube and the bearing. This happened on all three bearings. The short term solution was to ream out the cutlass bearings to get a better fit, and install a grease fitting to keep water out of the Rudder tube. The long term solution was to remove the bearings, clean out the rudder tube, coat it with Coal Tar and re-assemble. The same problem was found on my propeller shaft. Under normal situations, with running, the cutlass bearings would wear appropriately, but after leaving her out of the water for a season, the fit became too tight and I had to remove the shaft, bearings, clean and seal the stern tube and reassemble. So, all this is just to say you should check the play in your rudder bearings to make sure there is no binding, and if it is bound, what the possible cause might be. Good luck!
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