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Old 02-11-2013, 01:56 PM   #41
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Sorry, I gave the incorrect reference body in my earlier post. Anyone interested in the FACTS about radar reflectors should read the following UK reference.

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...s%20report.pdf
This the report I read a few years back that made me enquire to the local ferries how they saw me on radar with my little tube style, and then went out a purchased a new one.
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:17 PM   #42
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You pay your money and you take your chance!!

Here are 3 more references for the doubters. They do not make this stuff up!!

How to choose a Radar Reflector

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets...ctor+tests.pdf

http://www.tri-lens.com/practical_sailor.txt
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:37 PM   #43
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We have one of those. I've done no testing as to its effectiveness.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:29 PM   #44
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BP, thanks for the reference.

Ron: the site is here:Navigation Equipment (continued) - Transport Canada

and the relevant part is this:


Radar reflectors are required for vessels less than 20 metres long, and for all non-metal vessels. Locate reflectors above all superstructure at least 4 metres above the water if possible.

I don't have the reference, but for the CEs that I do in Vancouver Harbour, the additional requirement is that, since the location is "busy", the reflector must be mounted at all times.
I have had occasional discussions with boaters who deploy a Davis style reflector inside the flybridge, ie ahead of the wheel, and claim they get a good signature.
Personally, I hang a very effective RR from my spreader, just below the Radar Scanner. I have had reports of an excellent signature. I wouldn't be without it.
Those cylindrical reflectors with a 3 or 4" diameter were rated by Practical Sailor a number of yrs ago as giving a good signature. They can be mounted standing up on any surface, so there would be no boat design where you couldn't find a spot to mount one.
Well. I'm not in Canada so that rule doesn't apply to me. Do owners of 18' runabouts and such in Canada actully mount radar reflectors on their boats?
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:17 PM   #45
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Ron

NO ! they do not and actualy the way the Canuck rules read even I do not have to actualy have and or deploy any reflective device unless I intend and or are in reduced visability.

I do not have to have a reflector on the 12 foot livingston or the 18 foot runabout. I dont need to have one mounted on a ski boat or jet ski, or a row boat. In good visablity.

There was not one on the old commercial fishboat when purchased .

However with that being said I have a reflector instald on the boat. But could simply wrap the dry stack with aluminum foil if running in restricted visablity. To meet wants if I had too. I will wrap the engine cowling on the tender with tin foil when I am out at night in the fog when running the busy river.

For some vessels and some uses unlike most of our trawlers and uses there is no real point.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:54 PM   #46
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Radar reflectors work much differently than aluminum foil. It's the multiple angles that give the large radar cross section. The right angles formed by the reflector are key. Wrapping something in foil will only help marginally. The idea of the polytetrahedron gets you the maximum return in a given volume of spaces. Wrapping the inside of your your bridge cowl would also work against you as it's capturing RF and focusing it back. The idea is you want to present as large a perpendicular surface as possible to the transmitter.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:39 PM   #47
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As long as it is on the boat you are good to go. someone told me this and I couldn't believe it untill I checked it out.

A friend of mine had his stowed in the compartment under the helm on the fly bridge. I checked his signature with and without it. Just the cheap fold up kind.

With was better even stowed under the helm.

Honest the thing was just laying on the deck under the helm.

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Old 02-11-2013, 06:46 PM   #48
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One would suppose Canadian naval authorities would "pull over" any boat not showing up on their radar.
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:48 PM   #49
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One would suppose that the Canadian naval authorities would "pull over" any boat not showing up on their radar.

How would they find them
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:28 PM   #50
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One would suppose Canadian naval authorities would "pull over" any boat not showing up on their radar.
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Mark:
I know you are just being silly, but if you do get "pulled over" by the Police in Vancouver Harbour, should you P*ss them off, don't be surprised if you get inspected and get a ticket for each contravention of the rules. The Vancouver Police, RCMP, Coast Guard, Harbour Patrol, (did I forget anybody?) all have the authority to pull you over and to inspect, and can issue tickets.

Of course none of my friends would ever get pulled over in the first place, so you should be safe to come here.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:29 PM   #51
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I have operated my 37ft trawler in B.C. waters for the last 6 summers. I have never had anyone ask me about a reflector. It is in their rules, though.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:41 PM   #52
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Here is the FULL quote from Transport Canada and it leaves it wide open as to the requirement. I have been checked many many times for safety equipment and this has never been mentioned.

Vessels less than 20 m (657) in length or that are constructed primarily of non-metallic materials must have radar reflectors, unless they are not essential to the safety of the vessel, or the small size of the vessel or its operation away from radar navigation makes compliance impractical. If properly positioned, they help larger, less manoeuvrable vessels detect your presence on their radar screens. They should be located above all superstructures and at least 4 m (131) above the water (if possible).

Additional Operational - Transport Canada
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:05 PM   #53
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I have a Firdell "Blipper" on Mahalo Moi. It's manufactured in England. I have it mounted on top of the mast (photo). I have been told that we are very visible on other radar. I have no plans to remove it to see if the boat goes "stealth". And, yes, I have a CQR and a Bruce mounted on rollers on the pulpit....
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:32 PM   #54
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Honest the thing was just laying on the deck under the helm.
I believe ya. The Radar energy doesn't care how much fiberglass it runs through before hitting the reflector. It would work better in a free shot for the return path, but I'm sure it helps no matter where it's located. The higher the better.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:33 PM   #55
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I have a Firdell "Blipper" on Mahalo Moi. It's manufactured in England. I have it mounted on top of the mast (photo). I have been told that we are very visible on other radar. ...
Ray (Giggitoni) advised me the Coot (it's steel-built with lots of right angles) shows up well on radar despite not having a radar-reflector thingy.

Here's a better photo showing Ray's radar reflector (enclosed in cylinder near top of mast):

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:38 PM   #56
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We have a story....

A few years back our previous trawler (30' glass hull, wood superstructure, engine below the water line) was used to determine if mid priced commercial radar could be used to track vessel movements for a homeland security research project.

They put a fancy aircraft roll/pitch/yaw indicator hooked to a computer so as to record movements of the boat while being tracked on radar with an operator (who got seasick, he thought he was the lucky guy who got to go out on a boat for the day). We were given a specific set of waypoints to navigate to while being tracked. During this time we were in radio contact with the people collecting the data on shore from the radar site.

To make a long story short, they couldn't see the the boat on radar. They could "see" small outboard powered fishing boats in our vicinity but for all practical purposes we were invisible.

Of course we had a Davis reflector on board which I assembled and hoisted (in the rain catcher orientation) up our wooden mast. We were still invisible.
Before we left the dock they gave us one of those large, inflatable jobs that have some "stuff" inside. Once we put that up they could finally track us.

Our current boat came to us with the large Tri-Lens reflector. When I took the spar down to paint it and removed the unit I found it had water in it. I called the manufacturer to see if I could drill a hole in it to drain the water and they suggested I ship it back so they could test it and make sure its performance was still ok.

I sent it back and a few weeks later, a brand new one showed up at my door.
Talk about customer service.

Reading some of the prior posts I am glad to see that the large Tri-Lens rates as pretty much the best for a passive unit. I have no idea how the boat appears on radar relative to other boats our size.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:15 AM   #57
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Here is the FULL quote from Transport Canada and it leaves it wide open as to the requirement. I have been checked many many times for safety equipment and this has never been mentioned.

Vessels less than 20 m (657) in length or that are constructed primarily of non-metallic materials must have radar reflectors, unless they are not essential to the safety of the vessel, or the small size of the vessel or its operation away from radar navigation makes compliance impractical. If properly positioned, they help larger, less manoeuvrable vessels detect your presence on their radar screens. They should be located above all superstructures and at least 4 m (131) above the water (if possible).

Additional Operational - Transport Canada
OK, now we have the full regulation and that changes everything. This leaves it up to the boat owner/operator, the law enforcement officer, or ultimately the courts to determine if a radar reflector is required on a particular boat.

They might as well have said nothing about radar reflectors in the first place.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:43 AM   #58
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Ron I agree !!!!! It is a sound idea to have but not a mandatory need.

Kieth. in BC, only the police and or fisheries can enforce equipment rules and board for inspection etc.

CCG can not and do not have the budget for that. But they will, and can advise the authority with the power.

Some sailor

I should have stated crunched up tin foil laid over the engine cowel or dry stack. It works about as well as a store purchased cylinder type reflector.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:07 PM   #59
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Here is the FULL quote ...

Vessels less than 20 m (657) in length or that are constructed primarily of non-metallic materials must have radar reflectors, unless they are not essential to the safety of the vessel, or the small size of the vessel or its operation away from radar navigation makes compliance impractical.. ..
Thus, reflector gadget not needed on the Coot as it is a good radar target without one, so not essential to the vessel's safety. Hah!
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:46 PM   #60
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What about using an "active radar reflector" vs a passive?

Best regards,

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