ARoss
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radar reflectors
- Thread starter Slowboat 37
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
bobofthenorth
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What I don't understand is why anyone would try to "economize" on this. Its an inconsequential cost for an incalculable benefit. We have 2 reflectors on Gray Hawk and I saw some new-fangled ones at the boat show which I am considering adding.
We routinely see large vessels that leave almost no radar signature. I'm not talking about little fishing boats - I'm talking about 30 or 40 foot boats that I'm sure the owners think are visible on my radar but aren't.
Every one of us spends a lot more money on stupid gee-gaws for our boats that have no potential to avert disaster. When I have trouble seeing my anchor in heavy fog on English Bay I'm really happy that I have the reflectors I do have.
We routinely see large vessels that leave almost no radar signature. I'm not talking about little fishing boats - I'm talking about 30 or 40 foot boats that I'm sure the owners think are visible on my radar but aren't.
Every one of us spends a lot more money on stupid gee-gaws for our boats that have no potential to avert disaster. When I have trouble seeing my anchor in heavy fog on English Bay I'm really happy that I have the reflectors I do have.
SomeSailor
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I have designed and built a few that I installed on top of crab pot floats. It was odd at first seeing my crab pots showing as larger targets than the boats around them. They dramatically increase the cross section and are very cool to see working. I'll dig up some pics.
Northern Spy
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You got it. It's not shiny, has no buttons to push, and won't impress your slip neighbors.
I have two. Bought the second one when I found the tube style is not do great.
I got mine at the local fishing supply store. They use them on their floats. Very inexpensive and very effective, although not as shiny as the "yacht" version. Once in the fog I was with a group of other boats, and it was mentioned that my target looked a lot bigger than the rest. And I had one of the smaller boats.
BP, thanks for the reference.
Ron: the site is here:Navigation Equipment (continued) - Transport Canada
and the relevant part is this:
Radar reflectors are required for vessels less than 20 metres long, and for all non-metal vessels. Locate reflectors above all superstructure – at least 4 metres above the water if possible.
I don't have the reference, but for the CEs that I do in Vancouver Harbour, the additional requirement is that, since the location is "busy", the reflector must be mounted at all times.
I have had occasional discussions with boaters who deploy a Davis style reflector inside the flybridge, ie ahead of the wheel, and claim they get a good signature.
Personally, I hang a very effective RR from my spreader, just below the Radar Scanner. I have had reports of an excellent signature. I wouldn't be without it.
Those cylindrical reflectors with a 3 or 4" diameter were rated by Practical Sailor a number of yrs ago as giving a good signature. They can be mounted standing up on any surface, so there would be no boat design where you couldn't find a spot to mount one.
Ron: the site is here:Navigation Equipment (continued) - Transport Canada
and the relevant part is this:
Radar reflectors are required for vessels less than 20 metres long, and for all non-metal vessels. Locate reflectors above all superstructure – at least 4 metres above the water if possible.
I don't have the reference, but for the CEs that I do in Vancouver Harbour, the additional requirement is that, since the location is "busy", the reflector must be mounted at all times.
I have had occasional discussions with boaters who deploy a Davis style reflector inside the flybridge, ie ahead of the wheel, and claim they get a good signature.
Personally, I hang a very effective RR from my spreader, just below the Radar Scanner. I have had reports of an excellent signature. I wouldn't be without it.
Those cylindrical reflectors with a 3 or 4" diameter were rated by Practical Sailor a number of yrs ago as giving a good signature. They can be mounted standing up on any surface, so there would be no boat design where you couldn't find a spot to mount one.
Carolena
Guru
Nordic installs reflectors as factory equipment, usually installed inside the fake smoke stack (that is where ours is located). Literature from teh time our boat was produced, 2002, indicated that the reflector would give a signaure more like a 60ft steel boat, as opposed to a 34 ft fiberglass boat. So, if you ever wondered, now you know what is inside the fake Nordic Tug stacks.
Sorry, I gave the incorrect reference body in my earlier post. Anyone interested in the FACTS about radar reflectors should read the following UK reference. Since this was published improvement have been made to "active" powered reflectors but nothing has changed regarding passive units. Most passive units are useless (particularly true of folding/ foil/cardboard "emergency" units) and/or must be installed in exactly the right orientation to work even modestly (Davis unit). It is a fair bet that most passive reflectors installed out there do not do much for safety at sea!!
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/radar%20reflectors%20report.pdf
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/radar%20reflectors%20report.pdf
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psneeld
Guru
Sorry...this is absolutely marginal info about passive reflectors. Many other studies would disagree. While they are never going to be as good as active products and don't work in all situations...they do a good enough job for most of us.
Have seen literally thousands in use and tested more than a few....they work about as advertised..even the cheap foil ones (though not designed for long term use).
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Northern Spy
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This the report I read a few years back that made me enquire to the local ferries how they saw me on radar with my little tube style, and then went out a purchased a new one.
You pay your money and you take your chance!!
Here are 3 more references for the doubters. They do not make this stuff up!!
How to choose a Radar Reflector
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS+Studies/radar+reflector+tests.pdf
http://www.tri-lens.com/practical_sailor.txt
Here are 3 more references for the doubters. They do not make this stuff up!!
How to choose a Radar Reflector
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS+Studies/radar+reflector+tests.pdf
http://www.tri-lens.com/practical_sailor.txt
BP, thanks for the reference.
Ron: the site is here:Navigation Equipment (continued) - Transport Canada
and the relevant part is this:
Radar reflectors are required for vessels less than 20 metres long, and for all non-metal vessels. Locate reflectors above all superstructure – at least 4 metres above the water if possible.
I don't have the reference, but for the CEs that I do in Vancouver Harbour, the additional requirement is that, since the location is "busy", the reflector must be mounted at all times.
I have had occasional discussions with boaters who deploy a Davis style reflector inside the flybridge, ie ahead of the wheel, and claim they get a good signature.
Personally, I hang a very effective RR from my spreader, just below the Radar Scanner. I have had reports of an excellent signature. I wouldn't be without it.
Those cylindrical reflectors with a 3 or 4" diameter were rated by Practical Sailor a number of yrs ago as giving a good signature. They can be mounted standing up on any surface, so there would be no boat design where you couldn't find a spot to mount one.
Well. I'm not in Canada so that rule doesn't apply to me. Do owners of 18' runabouts and such in Canada actully mount radar reflectors on their boats?
OFB
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Ron
NO ! they do not and actualy the way the Canuck rules read even I do not have to actualy have and or deploy any reflective device unless I intend and or are in reduced visability.
I do not have to have a reflector on the 12 foot livingston or the 18 foot runabout. I dont need to have one mounted on a ski boat or jet ski, or a row boat. In good visablity.
There was not one on the old commercial fishboat when purchased .
However with that being said I have a reflector instald on the boat. But could simply wrap the dry stack with aluminum foil if running in restricted visablity. To meet wants if I had too. I will wrap the engine cowling on the tender with tin foil when I am out at night in the fog when running the busy river.
For some vessels and some uses unlike most of our trawlers and uses there is no real point.
NO ! they do not and actualy the way the Canuck rules read even I do not have to actualy have and or deploy any reflective device unless I intend and or are in reduced visability.
I do not have to have a reflector on the 12 foot livingston or the 18 foot runabout. I dont need to have one mounted on a ski boat or jet ski, or a row boat. In good visablity.
There was not one on the old commercial fishboat when purchased .
However with that being said I have a reflector instald on the boat. But could simply wrap the dry stack with aluminum foil if running in restricted visablity. To meet wants if I had too. I will wrap the engine cowling on the tender with tin foil when I am out at night in the fog when running the busy river.
For some vessels and some uses unlike most of our trawlers and uses there is no real point.
SomeSailor
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Radar reflectors work much differently than aluminum foil. It's the multiple angles that give the large radar cross section. The right angles formed by the reflector are key. Wrapping something in foil will only help marginally. The idea of the polytetrahedron gets you the maximum return in a given volume of spaces. Wrapping the inside of your your bridge cowl would also work against you as it's capturing RF and focusing it back. The idea is you want to present as large a perpendicular surface as possible to the transmitter.
skipperdude
Guru
As long as it is on the boat you are good to go. someone told me this and I couldn't believe it untill I checked it out.
A friend of mine had his stowed in the compartment under the helm on the fly bridge. I checked his signature with and without it. Just the cheap fold up kind.
With was better even stowed under the helm.
Honest the thing was just laying on the deck under the helm.
SD
A friend of mine had his stowed in the compartment under the helm on the fly bridge. I checked his signature with and without it. Just the cheap fold up kind.
With was better even stowed under the helm.
Honest the thing was just laying on the deck under the helm.
SD
markpierce
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One would suppose Canadian naval authorities would "pull over" any boat not showing up on their radar.
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One would suppose Canadian naval authorities would "pull over" any boat not showing up on their radar.
__________________
"Sail Tug" Carquinez Coot
Mark:
I know you are just being silly, but if you do get "pulled over" by the Police in Vancouver Harbour, should you P*ss them off, don't be surprised if you get inspected and get a ticket for each contravention of the rules. The Vancouver Police, RCMP, Coast Guard, Harbour Patrol, (did I forget anybody?) all have the authority to pull you over and to inspect, and can issue tickets.
Of course none of my friends would ever get pulled over in the first place, so you should be safe to come here.
__________________
"Sail Tug" Carquinez Coot
Mark:
I know you are just being silly, but if you do get "pulled over" by the Police in Vancouver Harbour, should you P*ss them off, don't be surprised if you get inspected and get a ticket for each contravention of the rules. The Vancouver Police, RCMP, Coast Guard, Harbour Patrol, (did I forget anybody?) all have the authority to pull you over and to inspect, and can issue tickets.
Of course none of my friends would ever get pulled over in the first place, so you should be safe to come here.
LaBomba
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Here is the FULL quote from Transport Canada and it leaves it wide open as to the requirement. I have been checked many many times for safety equipment and this has never been mentioned.
Vessels less than 20 m (65’7”) in length or that are constructed primarily of non-metallic materials must have radar reflectors, unless they are not essential to the safety of the vessel, or the small size of the vessel or its operation away from radar navigation makes compliance impractical. If properly positioned, they help larger, less manoeuvrable vessels detect your presence on their radar screens. They should be located above all superstructures and at least 4 m (13’1”) above the water (if possible).
Additional Operational - Transport Canada
Vessels less than 20 m (65’7”) in length or that are constructed primarily of non-metallic materials must have radar reflectors, unless they are not essential to the safety of the vessel, or the small size of the vessel or its operation away from radar navigation makes compliance impractical. If properly positioned, they help larger, less manoeuvrable vessels detect your presence on their radar screens. They should be located above all superstructures and at least 4 m (13’1”) above the water (if possible).
Additional Operational - Transport Canada
Giggitoni
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I have a Firdell "Blipper" on Mahalo Moi. It's manufactured in England. I have it mounted on top of the mast (photo). I have been told that we are very visible on other radar. I have no plans to remove it to see if the boat goes "stealth". And, yes, I have a CQR and a Bruce mounted on rollers on the pulpit....
Attachments
SomeSailor
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I believe ya. The Radar energy doesn't care how much fiberglass it runs through before hitting the reflector. It would work better in a free shot for the return path, but I'm sure it helps no matter where it's located. The higher the better.
markpierce
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Ray (Giggitoni) advised me the Coot (it's steel-built with lots of right angles) shows up well on radar despite not having a radar-reflector thingy.
Here's a better photo showing Ray's radar reflector (enclosed in cylinder near top of mast):
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drf6
Veteran Member
We have a story....
A few years back our previous trawler (30' glass hull, wood superstructure, engine below the water line) was used to determine if mid priced commercial radar could be used to track vessel movements for a homeland security research project.
They put a fancy aircraft roll/pitch/yaw indicator hooked to a computer so as to record movements of the boat while being tracked on radar with an operator (who got seasick, he thought he was the lucky guy who got to go out on a boat for the day). We were given a specific set of waypoints to navigate to while being tracked. During this time we were in radio contact with the people collecting the data on shore from the radar site.
To make a long story short, they couldn't see the the boat on radar. They could "see" small outboard powered fishing boats in our vicinity but for all practical purposes we were invisible.
Of course we had a Davis reflector on board which I assembled and hoisted (in the rain catcher orientation) up our wooden mast. We were still invisible.
Before we left the dock they gave us one of those large, inflatable jobs that have some "stuff" inside. Once we put that up they could finally track us.
Our current boat came to us with the large Tri-Lens reflector. When I took the spar down to paint it and removed the unit I found it had water in it. I called the manufacturer to see if I could drill a hole in it to drain the water and they suggested I ship it back so they could test it and make sure its performance was still ok.
I sent it back and a few weeks later, a brand new one showed up at my door.
Talk about customer service.
Reading some of the prior posts I am glad to see that the large Tri-Lens rates as pretty much the best for a passive unit. I have no idea how the boat appears on radar relative to other boats our size.
A few years back our previous trawler (30' glass hull, wood superstructure, engine below the water line) was used to determine if mid priced commercial radar could be used to track vessel movements for a homeland security research project.
They put a fancy aircraft roll/pitch/yaw indicator hooked to a computer so as to record movements of the boat while being tracked on radar with an operator (who got seasick, he thought he was the lucky guy who got to go out on a boat for the day). We were given a specific set of waypoints to navigate to while being tracked. During this time we were in radio contact with the people collecting the data on shore from the radar site.
To make a long story short, they couldn't see the the boat on radar. They could "see" small outboard powered fishing boats in our vicinity but for all practical purposes we were invisible.
Of course we had a Davis reflector on board which I assembled and hoisted (in the rain catcher orientation) up our wooden mast. We were still invisible.
Before we left the dock they gave us one of those large, inflatable jobs that have some "stuff" inside. Once we put that up they could finally track us.
Our current boat came to us with the large Tri-Lens reflector. When I took the spar down to paint it and removed the unit I found it had water in it. I called the manufacturer to see if I could drill a hole in it to drain the water and they suggested I ship it back so they could test it and make sure its performance was still ok.
I sent it back and a few weeks later, a brand new one showed up at my door.
Talk about customer service.
Reading some of the prior posts I am glad to see that the large Tri-Lens rates as pretty much the best for a passive unit. I have no idea how the boat appears on radar relative to other boats our size.
OK, now we have the full regulation and that changes everything. This leaves it up to the boat owner/operator, the law enforcement officer, or ultimately the courts to determine if a radar reflector is required on a particular boat.
They might as well have said nothing about radar reflectors in the first place.
OFB
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Ron I agree !!!!! It is a sound idea to have but not a mandatory need.
Kieth. in BC, only the police and or fisheries can enforce equipment rules and board for inspection etc.
CCG can not and do not have the budget for that. But they will, and can advise the authority with the power.
Some sailor
I should have stated crunched up tin foil laid over the engine cowel or dry stack. It works about as well as a store purchased cylinder type reflector.
Kieth. in BC, only the police and or fisheries can enforce equipment rules and board for inspection etc.
CCG can not and do not have the budget for that. But they will, and can advise the authority with the power.
Some sailor
I should have stated crunched up tin foil laid over the engine cowel or dry stack. It works about as well as a store purchased cylinder type reflector.
markpierce
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Thus, reflector gadget not needed on the Coot as it is a good radar target without one, so not essential to the vessel's safety. Hah!
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