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Old 04-19-2013, 01:44 PM   #21
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http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName...sContent#rule7

Rule 7 - Risk of Collision

(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.

(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:53 PM   #22
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In the context, there are a lot of holes in Rule 7. Terms like "appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions", "Proper use...", etc would give a decent lawyer ample ammo to argue the merits of Rule 7.

I agree that radar should be used as conditions warrant, but I don't have my array automatically rotating every time I leave port- and I'll bet the vast majority of TF does the same.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:56 PM   #23
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The owner of the marine electronics shop in Bellingham had this to say when I asked him about the potential effects of radar emissions. The power from a modern recreational-type radar (Furuno, etc.) is so weak that the only way you could cause any negative effect on yourself is to put the radar in transmit and hold your head against the side of the radome for a week. Then..... maybe.... there might be some very slight effect on you.

However, he went on to say, better safe than sorry mount the radar antenna where people won't be in the path of the transmissions. In our case, the radome is well above the heads of anyone on deck or in the cabin. However as a practice we don't let people go up to the flying bridge if the radar is going to be transmitting, or if it's nice and people want to go up there we don't use the radar. We don't operate the boat from the flying bridge so the antenna's position is not a factor in actually operating the boat.

There are a couple of advantages to our lower antenna position so we have not been motivated to move it, plus the installation of both the antenna and the display on its retractable mount in the main cabin overhead are first rate and in the case of the display unit is very user-friendly. However if someone was contemplating adding a radar to a boat that didn't have it I would never recommend a flying-bridge-face location for the antenna.

Flying bridge face mounts were common in the "old days" when masts tended to be solid wood and the cable to the antenna was relatively huge. The flying bridge face was a good place to put the antenna and accommodating the thick, heavy cable was easy. That's why you tend to see these mounts on older boats only.

PS-- With regards to the issue of having a radar on all the time or not, the interpretation of the rule as explained to us by USCG officers a number of years ago is--- Use it if you think you need it. If you have a collision and you were not using your radar you will most likely be found to bear at least some of the responsibility, but the rule does not require you to have it on if you have it. It's totally your judgement call.

That said, we have our radar on all the time we are running. Not because we need it but by having it operating even in great visibility we are constantly seeing what vessels and navaids look like on the screen and can play with the range and bearing indicators if we want to. So we are very used to using it so on those occasions when we might come around a point and run right into patch of heavy, localized fog our transition to "instruments' is seamless and easy.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:57 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by thurman View Post
I'm a little more conversative. I feel that exposure to mircowave radiation is like having someone throw random sized stones at you from 100 yards away. There's little chance they'll hit you with a big one, but if they do I'll hurt. Microwaves can alter a cell's nucleus, and cancer is a possibility. Exposure to microwave energy won't automatically give you cancer, it just increases the risk. The more energy, the greater likelyhood that a bad thing will happen. This is a completly different problem than being cooked, which is simply adding enough Brownian motion (heat) due to the energy increase to cause tissue breakdown (ya get burned). Sperm, by the way, are particulary sensitive to heat, so if you are a male of child producing age, try not to leave the Boy Bits in the beam. I think I get enough radiation via random energy leakage from trons, and from cosmic radition from the universe, that I don't need to add to the total if I can prevent it. I wear a seatbelt too...

I've seen some radar installations on small boats that actually have the radar mounted at the level that would place the crotch of someone at the flybridge directly in the center of the beam. I would not operate the radar from that flying bridge!

Thurman
Who isn't a doctor, but does hold an FCC first class license with a ship's radar endorsement.
http://www.furunousa.com/ProductDocu...%201-18-10.pdf

1. DESCRIPTION OF OPERATION
1-52
1.43 Sector Blank
You must prevent the transmission in some areas to protect passengers and crew
from microwave radiation. Also, if the reflections of echoes from the mast appear on
the screen, you must prevent the transmission in that area. You can set two sectors.
1. Press the
MENU key to open the menu.
2. Use the Cursorpad (
�� or ��) to select [Sector Blanks] and press the ENTER key.

3. Use the Cursorpad (
�� or ��) to select [Sect-Blank
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:57 PM   #25
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"Also, by way of an FYI, it's my understanding the USCG requires that if a boat has a working radar that it be on when the boat is underway."


164.01 Applicability.


(a) This part (except as specifically limited by this section) applies to each self-propelled vessel of 1600 or more gross tons (except as provided in paragraphs (c) and (d) of this section, or for foreign vessels described in 164.02) when it is operating in the navigable waters of the United States except the St. Lawrence Seaway.

If your vessel is not more than 1600 gross tons, the regs you state concering radar do not apply.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:58 PM   #26
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If one has a "proper" mast, it is easy to avoid being scanned by one's own radar.



While having lunch at Sam's Cafe dock last year, we were relieved when a boat operator returned to his docked boat and turned off his radar.
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:03 PM   #27
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Everyone has such great examples. One more. Having worked in a company that used RF to cut catheters, I was once warned about our RF welders/cutters that they could remove your child making ability. I kept my distance.

Anyway - I think I like those broadband radars, but have and like my Garmin equipment and Garmin doesn't make one. Anyone know of they have plans to make a broadband radar compatible with their other equipment ?
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Back when first developed the beam was so strong it boiled/kill birds flying through the beam. the first micro waves were Amanradar. So standing in front of a micro wave oven you are getting a small dose. However when not in use the radar should be on standby.
That's how the microwave oven was invented. A Raytheon Engineer accidentally discovered that his new magnetron had melted a candy bar in his pocket.
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:43 PM   #29
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It would seem to me all of the above discussion does seem to make quite strong case for one buying one of the new broadband 3 or 4G types now, if setting a new system up, as this is potential microwave danger is not an issue with that type, and the structure of many of our type of craft, (ok...Marks Coot excluded), does make setting the radar up high enough to be out of all possible harm's way, not so easy.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:10 PM   #30
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I never keep radar on while anyone is on bridge or sundeck. That's what salon pilot station is for and one of very few reasons I'll pilot from salon! Radar screen is in salon only.

I love to pilot from the bridge.

If I place new radar on boat I will also place new mast with radar mounted high and a screen on bridge console too...
.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:23 PM   #31
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My first trawler, a California 42, had its radar mounted on the forward edge of the fly bridge...don't know what that is called....such that it was aimed at my privates when up there. First thing I had done was move that thing to the mast. Safe or not, if felt uncomfortable.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:50 PM   #32
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To answer the op's question he should read the defective seaCock thread. To much radar I think.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:17 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
The owner of the marine electronics shop in Bellingham had this to say when I asked him about the potential effects of radar emissions. The power from a modern recreational-type radar (Furuno, etc.) is so weak that the only way you could cause any negative effect on yourself is to put the radar in transmit and hold your head against the side of the radome for a week. Then..... maybe.... there might be some very slight effect on you.

However, he went on to say, better safe than sorry mount the radar antenna where people won't be in the path of the transmissions. In our case, the radome is well above the heads of anyone on deck or in the cabin. However as a practice we don't let people go up to the flying bridge if the radar is going to be transmitting, or if it's nice and people want to go up there we don't use the radar. We don't operate the boat from the flying bridge so the antenna's position is not a factor in actually operating the boat.

There are a couple of advantages to our lower antenna position so we have not been motivated to move it, plus the installation of both the antenna and the display on its retractable mount in the main cabin overhead are first rate and in the case of the display unit is very user-friendly. However if someone was contemplating adding a radar to a boat that didn't have it I would never recommend a flying-bridge-face location for the antenna.

Flying bridge face mounts were common in the "old days" when masts tended to be solid wood and the cable to the antenna was relatively huge. The flying bridge face was a good place to put the antenna and accommodating the thick, heavy cable was easy. That's why you tend to see these mounts on older boats only.

PS-- With regards to the issue of having a radar on all the time or not, the interpretation of the rule as explained to us by USCG officers a number of years ago is--- Use it if you think you need it. If you have a collision and you were not using your radar you will most likely be found to bear at least some of the responsibility, but the rule does not require you to have it on if you have it. It's totally your judgement call.

That said, we have our radar on all the time we are running. Not because we need it but by having it operating even in great visibility we are constantly seeing what vessels and navaids look like on the screen and can play with the range and bearing indicators if we want to. So we are very used to using it so on those occasions when we might come around a point and run right into patch of heavy, localized fog our transition to "instruments' is seamless and easy.
Awesome pics Marin
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:22 PM   #34
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Thanks everyone for all your great info. When I was in the navy the last thing I had to worry about was radar. I was a snipe. Boiler technician..when the subs would shoot us with the rubber bullets we had to run over with our wooden cone and piece of rubber and act like we were patching the hole.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:43 PM   #35
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Awesome pics Marin
Thanks. I took them last fall (I think). It's a fairly common condition here during certain parts of the year although it can happen anytime. An extremely dense fog--- by which I mean can barely see the bow dense--- will form in the channels between the islands. The tops of these bands are not very high as you can see.

As a floatplane pilot I pay them no heed because they are so low but when we started boating in the islands I realized just how tricky they can make things. The fact they tend to form in some of the busier channels--- some mostly recreational boats but some that carry tanker, bulk carrier, ferry and tug and barge traffic, too--- means one can't simply plunge into them with no worries knowing that you'll soon come out the other side.

This is one reason we like to have our radar on at all times. It's easy to monitor being right in front of us and by using it all the time there is no mental transition between running in good visibility and having to transit one of these fog "channels."

Here are a couple more shots taken during the same run. The fog looks so benign, being such a low band, but when you enter it, even if it's fairly bright and even bluish straight up above you, laterally you are as blind as a bat.

A lot of the radarless sportfishing boats run right through it full tilt, I guess trusting to the odds and the fact that the faster they go the less time they'll be in it. But that's not an option in an eight knot boat even if you wanted it. So our radar stays on all the time.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:35 AM   #36
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Marin, what beautiful weather you have in the PNW.

A not-unusual summer day on SF Bay:

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Old 04-20-2013, 01:38 AM   #37
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Our radar antenna is mounted a couple of feet above the heads of anyone on the flybridge so I have no concerns about operating the radar while people are up there.




I do like the concept of the broadband radars and their extremely low power transmission. I'm probably going to replace my radar in the next couple of years. I don't know if I'll go with broadband or not. At this time their ability to identify targets at a distance is more limited than a standard radar.

One can make the argument that you needn't worry about targets a long way off, and there's some truth to that.

I do like the ability of broadband radars to discriminate between two or more short range targets. I'm just not sure that feature overshadows the lack of ability to see distant targets.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:45 AM   #38
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Two questions all. How much further do you need to see.? Broadband is good for 24nm @ 3G, and 32nm@4G. Also, which object are you likely to hit, one that's near, or one far away...?
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:15 AM   #39
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I never understood why someone would mount the radar at crotch level, but I guess if you (1) never use it while on the flybridge, or (2) can restrict it to not transmit in one sector, it starts to make sense. Thanks to those who clarified that for me.

I'm still a little put off when I see radars mounted to angle down. The thought here is that when the boat is on plane (obviously not a trawler) the radar will be level. But I always figured you need radar the most in weather conditions where you wouldn't want to be at planing speeds.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:35 AM   #40
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http://www.raymarine.com/manualsearch/

rotates parallel to the water line.
Planing hull boats and some displacement hull boats adopt a higher bow angle when the boat is at cruising speed, so on these boats it may be necessary to shim the rear of the HD Digital Radome Antenna, to compensate for the bow rise and ensure optimum target detection. The amount of shimming should be such that when the bow rises at cruising speed, the radar beam rotation is in the horizontal plane,
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