Power what while at anchor?

[FF]

Which bats the charger is hooked up to with rotary switches is always a fun question.

Years of owner or boat yard installs can be big fun to unravel.

You might disconnect the individual house batts and hook a portable charger to each overnight,this will give an idea if the dead batts can be saved.

Eventually you must draw a schematic of what is installed and how it is hooked up.

Then you need to decide what you need the system to do ..

Places that sell old style wired alarm systems have books that contain stick on numbers.

This makes it easy to mark each individual wire at both ends , as well as the control or CB for each.


$25 to maintain your sanity!



https://www.bradyid.com/en-us/produ...MIqabQp7fx3AIVWbbACh2C8QoREAQYAyABEgIaEfD_BwE

 

[Bay Pelican]

Are wind turbines not something trawler owners use? I've never had one on any of my sailboats (the only kind of boat I've ever owned), but they're common on cruising sailboats in conjunction with solar, especially since they can take advantage of wind at night and during periods of overcast skies. Storms, even.



Just wondering is all.

Bay Pelican had a small wind generator (Air Breeze) selected because it was quieter than others. In the Eastern Caribbean it worked 24 hours per day and generated over 140 amps hours per day, enough to run the refrigeration.

This and our two solar panels reduced our generator usage significantly, so much so that when we were at the dock we cut the dock power during the day and used the wind and solar. This made sense when we were paying $1.10 per kilowatt. At night we ran the refrigeration on dock power. While we were efficient in electrical usage we were not camping. TV, lights, computers, etc. were all in use.

 

[O C Diver]

Oh yeah- someone asked what was on:
Depth x2, radiox2, radar x2, chart plotter x2, autopilot and refrigerator (not sure it was actually on as loose terminals and was intermittent), anchor windlass.
I had the electronics on on both upper and lower helms. I do turn off hot water, freezer, fresh water pump at breaker, but do leave all other breakers on, but no need for lights in day. Does that still draw if wall switch is off?

Those 2 radars depending on their age, will eat a moderate amount even in standby mode. If I need the radars on when anchored, I need to find another anchorage. No need to leave on the autopilot, chart plotters, both depth gauges and both radios.

On my boat, I leave on the AIS transmitter, nmea 2000 network which powers three 4" displays with gps, depth, wind information and the anchor drag alarm. It consumes about 1 amp total. No reason to leave the radio on unless you're expecting a call.

Ted

 

[ranger58sb]

The house /starting battery is a Deka DP31DT Battery 31 875ca 205m@23a 100ah... the batteries were replaced in 2014. The batteries must not have been charged, and now I have to figure out why.

The label on the batteries says "deep cycle starting" which pretty much means they're not really deep cycle batteries... instead being dual-purpose batteries. And yours are 5 years old, not a premium brand/product... I'd guess they're simply at or very near end-of-life.

Dual-purpose batteries have a place in life, and may be OK for your installation... but there are other ways to get real deep cycle capability.

Five sounds like an odd number (pardon the pun) for a single battery bank. Seems to me that exceeds the typical recommendations about how many batteries should be in parallel. I'm only seeing three in the pics, I think...

-Chris

 

[koliver]

Oh yeah- someone asked what was on:
Depth x2, radiox2, radar x2, chart plotter x2, autopilot and refrigerator (not sure it was actually on as loose terminals and was intermittent), anchor windlass.
I had the electronics on on both upper and lower helms. I do turn off hot water, freezer, fresh water pump at breaker, but do leave all other breakers on, but no need for lights in day. Does that still draw if wall switch is off?

Seriously?

If you are leaving all that stuff "on" it is no wonder your batteries can't take it. Do you really mean that only the breakers to those circuits are "on" and the switches at the various loads are "off".

Each of the radars will draw several amps, even on Standby. If actually on, depending on the age and style of the radar, anything from a few to many amps continuously. Each will be enough to kill weak batteries. I never leave my modern radar on if the engines are off. My old Furuno CRT radar would draw more than my old alternator could put out.
Autopilot could be another big draw. If you are swinging at anchor your autopilot will be struggling to get you back on course, at a high cost in amps. Why would that be left on, even in standby mode?
Fridge with loose terminals? Easy fix, so do it. Then see my rant in another recent fridge thread.
Plotter and sounders: usually not huge amp consumers, but not required while at anchor, unless you are in a poor anchorage and wish to maintain an anchor watch. Then I would sacrifice all other unnecessary loads to prefer the plotter.
Windlass: should be no draw unless actually pulling the chain in. In fact, though there is a master switch on the 2/0 cable to my windlass, I leave it closed at all times.
Sounders and radios are not necessary and can quickly be switched on when they become necessary.
AC loads will draw through the inverter when in use, but if the inverter itself is off, there will be no load on the batteries. Even in standby, the inverter will still put a load on the batteries, and depending on the sophistication of yours, that may be a heavy load, up to over 5 amps continuously.

 

[ghost]

I cringed when I saw that list. I’d like to see the amp reading while all that was going on. Radar, cringe. My autopilot has a nice size hydraulic motor, and if I leave it on, I can hear it spin every time the boat swings. Might not add up as bad as it seems, but I’d NEVER intentionally leave all that running. I’ve been known to search every ac outlet on the boat at night looking for usb cubes plugged in and ghosting. I think I’d have a mental breakdown if I walked in and found all that going.

 

[dhays]

On my boat, I leave on the AIS transmitter, nmea 2000 network which powers three 4" displays with gps, depth, wind information and the anchor drag alarm. It consumes about 1 amp total. No reason to leave the radio on unless you're expecting a call.

Ted

1 amp is very little. I generally have been shutting down all my electronics when at anchor and then just turn them on again if I want to check depth. If the power usage is really that small, I will rethink that. To be honest, I've pretty much had an all or none approach to the electronics, but I should figure out what are the fewest breakers I can turn on to get just my depth and sirius weather.

 

[O C Diver]

1 amp is very little. I generally have been shutting down all my electronics when at anchor and then just turn them on again if I want to check depth. If the power usage is really that small, I will rethink that. To be honest, I've pretty much had an all or none approach to the electronics, but I should figure out what are the fewest breakers I can turn on to get just my depth and sirius weather.

I may be off a little on the amp draw with AIS, but the nmea 2000 network with those 4" displays draws almost nothing. The fuse in the network power supply is 3 amps. Truthfully, I believe i measured mine with an amp meter in the fuse holder, but that was 3 years ago.

Ted

 

[dhays]

I may be off a little on the amp draw with AIS, but the nmea 2000 network with those 4" displays draws almost nothing. The fuse in the network power supply is 3 amps. Truthfully, I believe i measured mine with an amp meter in the fuse holder, but that was 3 years ago.

Ted

Well, I won't hold you to it. The point is that I may be able to figure out how to leave on some of the electronics as needed with very little power draw.


Over the weekend we had my daughter and her family on the boat. So, overnight we had the 9 cu.ft NovaKool in the gally and a 2 cu.ft. NovaKool freezer in the aft cockpit, my wife's cpap running on the inverter as well as the 2 phones and 1 tablets being charged on the inverter as well as phone and tablet being charge with a 12v plug. My daughter is still breast feeding and is constantly trying to keep putting milk away so she gets up at 2:30 and had a breast pump running off the inverter for 20 minutes (how many times has that come up in a discussion of power use on a boat?). Add to that the anchor light, Tecma toilet and water pump for all the nocturnal head visits.



Running the boat for 4 hours in the morning and then the solar all day, the 780 AH battery bank was at about 95% when we went to bed. In the morning it was down to about 83% after using the Keurig to make a cup of coffee. I like to keep my battery drain over night to no more than 80% SOC. I have the inverter set to cut out at 70%. That only happens if I forget to turn off the water heater or oil pan heater.

 

[garycasey]

Loose connection

Don't forget to look at the simple things first. It looks like you have verified that you have enough battery and the loads are small. I very much doubt that your "good" batteries would suddenly not be good after a couple of hours running normal loads. For a short stop like that I, too would not have given battery management a second thought. Check for loose connections somewhere along the line. You were able to start it with a jump, so that should give you a clue about where the loose connection might be. Good luck.

 

[Andiamo2018]

There was plenty of cool stuff on our boat when we got it. Very little was installed correctly (almost all by professional boat yards.)

The battery charger can connect to 3 banks but only two of the possible three were connected and they were to the same battery. Running off one battery left the other to dwindle away.

There was not a single 12 volt cigarette type outlet! The flybridge navigation is via an ipad or touch screen that could easily be powered by usb.

I first learned how to fix things by watching others and copying what they did. Now in my 50's I'm still relearning a lot of things that I watched / copied / 'learned' that were completely wrong

To the OP, it's tough on a trawler that has a lot of systems but address them one at a time and read everything you can. For now you have one big system that needs your immediate attention so at least knowing where to start has been solved. Don't assume things were done correctly in the past or that you made some big mistake. Go one step at a time, trace all the wires and think about what makes sense to you. You are responsible for those on-board and going a little overboard in making sure your systems work (and that you know how to work them) can only help you to feel more comfortable and use your boat more.

 

[foreverunderway]

When anchoring almost EVERYTHING should be shut off

We are full-time liveaboards who spend upwards of 320 days a year on our anchor, so I think this suggestion is rather impractical for many.
Electricity on a boat not connected to shore power is just a matter of mathematics. You need to calculate how many amps you want to use over a 24 hour period and have enough amps in your batteries that this consumption figure is roughly 20% of your total available amps. Then you need a method of replacing the consumed amps.
We use a combination of solar panels, a windgen, and an 8kw diesel genset to accomplish this.

 

[Ernie]

Just wondering

After reading all post and then looking at crawdaddy pics, I thought all house battery banks were 6volt golf cart batteries connected to get 12volts in the end. I have heard they are some of the ones that can drain down to '0' and be recharged without hurting them.

 

[wpc691]

I will risk my 2 cents, even if it has nothing to see with your issue.
I would advise you to check all of your battery/alternator crimped connectors, clean them if needed (I can see that some look like a bit corroded on batteries), and protect the crimp using liquid tape and / or heat shrink and / or electric tape.
I can see that used cables are not tinned copper so I would even more recommend you to protect the crimp so cable itself will not start to corrode especially if you are in salt water.

L

I can’t muster up Lou’s level of diplomacy. Your existing battery terminal connections are horrible. Buy new batteries (power survey first, decide what you really need), then have the bank rewired by a good marine electrician. There are endless threads on selecting the power system configuration that’s right for you; study up and select what will work best for the way you use your boat - it might not be what’s in there now.

 

[rgano]

If not already installed, you should also have a e-meter like the Link 10 installed to track the status of your "house" including the AMP-hour usage. These meters required an informed user who understands the status of his battery bank because the battery capacity needs to be entered manually as a starting point and updates as the battery bank ages and loses capacity.

Stop running your battery charger 24/7 when at the marina unless you can verify that once it reaches 100% charge it shuts down the current. That forever trickle charging is not doing your batteries any good.

I agree with earlier comments - get new batteries and have a separate, isolated starting bank.

 

[wpc691]

After reading all post and then looking at crawdaddy pics, I thought all house battery banks were 6volt golf cart batteries connected to get 12volts in the end. I have heard they are some of the ones that can drain down to '0' and be recharged without hurting them.

“House battery bank” only means it’s powering house loads - it can be any battery you want to try. GC2’s are good house batteries and are used on lots of boats, including mine. They are true deep cycle construction, and give you good bang for the buck. Lead acid batteries have limited life, which is shortened by discharge - the deeper the discharge, the shorter the life. The most common recommendation is to not discharge below 50%SOC; if you’re lucky enough to have capacity to make that 60 or 70, the bank will last longer. I think LiFePO4 banks can be discharged to 30% SOC without damage, but you pay a lot for that privilege.

 

[steve marcus]

series and parallel

I went for a long time on my old boat, totally mystified by how quickly the batteries went flat even though they were new and on paper there was plenty of capacity and charging capacity. I discovered that they had been connected in parallel and that the voltage regulator was getting the message from the first battery when it was full and stopped charging and there was nothing in the batteries further down the line. i fixed this by changing to large 6 volt Trojan golf cart batts in series and had separate banks , each charge with their own 200 watt solar panel and separate regulator,with "either or" switches so that each bank got fully charged and only one could be flattened and I had a diode at the end of each bank and took a feed off both banks for the fridge as it was the only thing that ran all the time. I am on a mooring in the channel with no mains power and after this , I never had a problem

 

[OldDan1943]

Let's start out slow. Get a cup of coffee and get comfortable.
The generator battery "out" is isolated.
The main engine start battery "out" is isolated from the rest of the batteries ie, goes only to the designated engine.
The house batteries supplies everything else.
I say this with the understanding, yes there are parallel switches but, for now let's ignore them.
It is my understanding, all house and main engines batteries must be the same type and age and amperage capacity. You cannot mix and match types and ages and amperage capacity of batteries within the house bank? You cannot do that with flash light batteries (a small battery bus) so what makes you can do that with house batteries?
By golly, the system worked flawlessly too.

Now, stepping back beyond the house bus. Each battery size and type have different charge rates. My previous boat, 8Ds all the same make and age. The only 'different' battery was the start battery for the generator. All the 8Ds were the same age, type and amperage size. All the 8Ds were AGM. Never had a lick of a problem.
IF you start with mixing batteries types of batteries and ages and amperage size within the house bus and sizes of batteries, you are screwing with the system design. You get a problem, what do you expect? I know what you are hoping for but, the system is not designed for that mix and match. End of story.
Note, my generator start battery was also an AGM. I did not mess with the design of the battery design. I am not qualified nor educated enough to change nor mess with the system design.
Now, per the parallel switches compare them to the fuel system on the boat, you can parallel the fuel supply tanks, you can you can parallel the returns. You can draw from one tank, return it to the same tank OR send it to another tank. The return hoses are the same size. The supply lines are the same size, with the exception of the supply and return to the generator. Generally speaking, the size of the generator supply and return hoses may be smaller than the supply and return hoses going to and from the main engines.
Per what you can safely put on the house electrical bus, that is a function of the size of the house bank. IF you keep adding stuff to the house bank, of course the time house bus will last without charging will change.
The American Tug is truly blessed. The electrical bus designer realized you can cant load up the without effecting the run-time of the bus.
At night, you will need 12 volt for the fridge and the TV (powered by a separate and small inverter), the anchor light and a reasonable number of house lights. Just as there is 'load management' on the AC bus, there must be 'load management' on the DC bus.
Yes, I have 2X135 amp solar panels. What comes from there is "free" and I do not include the output in any calculations.
Per A/C, if I want or need it, I start the generator, end of story.
I have an electric stove and microwave. First thing I shut off, hot water heater. Next, I change my microwave to the inverter bus. If I am still drawing too much power, I start limiting the number of burners I use on the stove'. Again, it is all about 'load management.' You cannot suck 50 gallons of water through a hose designed for a 30 gallons hose without reducing the water pressure. Cant do it with the electrical system either.
See how simple we cam make the electrical bus?
Two words, 'load management.'
If I am wrong, feel free to point out my errors so I can learn and improve.

 

[BruceK]

Dan, the AGMs I see advertised (I`ve been looking recently) are described as "deep cycle". Are there others designated as "start",or they ok for both start and house functions?

 

[OldDan1943]

Dan, the AGMs I see advertised (I`ve been looking recently) are described as "deep cycle". Are there others designated as "start",or they ok for both start and house functions?

The short answer is, "I don't know." All mine are "deep cycle AGM starting batteries" They seem to accept more abuse than those not designated "deep cycle" and recover.
I buy from a local marine battery supply store and let them change them out. It's all part of the "in place" battery prices. "You want me to buy your batteries, you gotta get the old ones out and properly dispose of them too.
Check out the 'cold cranking' rate. I try to buy the batteries advertising all the goodies and blessed by the Pope too. That last part was a joke.

 

[dhays]

It has been my understanding that anything that a “deep cycle start battery” is an oxymoron.

 

[O C Diver]

Well, I won't hold you to it. The point is that I may be able to figure out how to leave on some of the electronics as needed with very little power draw.

Dave,

Setting it up as I did, is actually quite simple. Locate the power feed to the nmea 2000 network ( you may have 2). If it's a Garmin product, the cord color will be yellow. Wire it to it's own circuit and your done. If you have an AIS black box such as a Garmin, and want it broadcasting your position, put it on the circuit with the nmea 2000 network. The AIS black box doesn't need a MFD turned on for the AIS to transmit. As far as displays go, you can either leave one of the MFDs on or add one of the 4" displays that draws it's power from the network cable. The 4" displays will show any data that travels over the nmea 2000 network. Mine will show position, speed, travel heading, depth, wind speed and direction, boat heading, outside air temperature, water temperature, and there's a built in anchor drag alarm. There are also alarms for depth, wind speed, and some others I haven't even looked at.

Ted

 

[dhays]

Thanks Ted. Great ideas and it gives me some place to start looking.

 

[BruceK]

The short answer is, "I don't know." All mine are "deep cycle AGM starting batteries" They seem to accept more abuse than those not designated "deep cycle" and recover....Check out the 'cold cranking' rate. I try to buy the batteries advertising all the goodies and blessed by the Pope too. That last part was a joke.

I suppose that answers it, if the AGM comes with a CCA rating it must be intended (or at least expected) to be used for starting, otherwise there would only be an Ah capacity stated.
What is your experience of longevity(just with the batts)of AGMs used for starting? I like batteries that are infallible too, but they`re tough to find.

 

[twistedtree]

We have Lifeline AGMs for start, house, and coms (all separate banks). Thats the norm for Nordhavns and they work great.

I don’t see any reason why a deep cycle battery can’t be used as a start battery, other than being more expensive than necessary. But a start battery won’t hold up under deep cycle use.

 

[FF]

"I don’t see any reason why a deep cycle battery can’t be used as a start battery,"

although they weigh the same the plates on a start are far thinner , so end up with more surface area.

This helps the voltage stay up with the large starter load.

The thick plates of a deep cycle work fine , if you get the plate area up by using a couple ganged together.

A start batt recovers from too much starter use as the many plates get covered with bubbles , which depart in a few min.The batt is not very discharged.

A bunch of 50% down house batts do an OK job of doing warm weather starts.

 

[ranger58sb]

Dan, the AGMs I see advertised (I`ve been looking recently) are described as "deep cycle". Are there others designated as "start",or they ok for both start and house functions?

Reading suggests sometimes (often) "deep cycle" for AGMs, especially for 12V AGMs, is simply a marketing term, and they're usually dual-purpose.

OTOH, some do make a distinction, whether or not it shows up correctly on their label or in their advertising. See East Penn's chart, for example, only selected 'cause I found it quickly):

http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.co...17-Deka-Spec-Sheet-Final-Rev-4-10-17_FULL.pdf

Lifeline is another brand that makes a distinction; see they're website.

FWIW, Lifeline told me that as long as I built up a bank of "deep cycle" batteries to the point where the bank would also provide the correct minimum of CCAs/MCAs for our engines... they can make good start banks, too. (And we've done that; seems to work fine.)

As I understand it, NorthStar AGMs are legitimately deep cycle. I know from experience that Odyssey AGMs provide decent deep cycle service.

Dunno if any of those are available in your neck of the woods... and then some are much more expensive than others.

-Chris

 

[twistedtree]

We have Lifeline AGMs for start, house, and coms (all separate banks). Thats the norm for Nordhavns and they work great.

I don’t see any reason why a deep cycle battery can’t be used as a start battery, other than being more expensive than necessary. But a start battery won’t hold up under deep cycle use.

 

[dhays]

FWIW, Lifeline told me that as long as I built up a bank of "deep cycle" batteries to the point where the bank would also provide the correct minimum of CCAs/MCAs for our engines... they can make good start banks, too. (And we've done that; seems to work fine.)

I have a Lifeline 8D AGM as a start battery. It was installed by the PO to replace a Chinese SLA battery. It works great. The Lifeline is a true deep cycle battery. However, it is really overkill for my Cummins 5.9L QSB engine. I believe that engine when installed in Dodge trucks uses two group 31 start batteries. That is a whole lot easier and cheaper. Even that is more than my needs in my boat, even in the winter as my ER temps never get that cold.